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Post by johnnypt on Aug 14, 2019 11:56:46 GMT -5
Aren't REH's tales already in the public domain? Some not all. Deepermagic goes into a lot of detail in his posts and touches on the important points. Edit-Like that!  |
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jakmon
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Post by jakmon on Aug 17, 2019 16:29:56 GMT -5
Thanks both. I'm all for REH's stories to go full public domain. Enough time has passed.
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Post by linefacedscrivener on Aug 18, 2019 16:28:46 GMT -5
I am now worried. I should've researched this a lot more thoroughly, that's clear. I've written a novel called DAMNED FROM BIRTH that is inspired by REH's short story "The Thing on the Roof" and clearly is intended to have the same first-person narrator. In Howard's story he doesn't even have a name, and I've given him one, as well as a Boston family background, a history, and a fiancée. Quite a few real historical characters appear in the novel, like Tom Anderson, boss of the New Orleans Fourth Ward. No REH characters except the narrator are featured, but H.P. Lovecraft's sinister artist Pickman, from "Pickman's Model," is, and he helps the narrator/protagonist out with some advice on how to deal with ghouls. I was certain that since HPL has been dead for over eighty years, and Robert E. Howard too, and since "The Thing on the Roof" was a one-off short story published in 1932 in WEIRD TALES, and "Pickman's Model" was published even earlier, I'd have no problems with copyright or license, but now it looks as though I was too sanguine about that. Can anybody help me clarify this? I agree with Deeper Magic Thief. I don't think you have much to worry about. While I am no lawyer, I have dealt with copyright law quite a bit in my writing, everything from articles and books to epigraphs and photos. The copyright law at the time "The Thing on the Roof" was published (Weird Tales February 1932) stated that a person could have a copyright on something they published for up to 95 years, but there was a caveat - they had to renew the copyright after 28 years. The story was published in 1932 so it needed to be renewed in 1960. The thing is (pun intended), there was no one really controlling the copyright on Howard's stories that would renew it. The lists that are shown on the web are often cited as those stories not showing up on the copyright renewal lists. The only stories in 1960 that might have been renewed were the Conan stories, and we know they were not (or at least there is no evidence they were). Once a story moves into the public domain, you can then use it how you see fit. You can reprint the story, passages from the story, or use the story to create a new story by using the characters, etc. We see this done today with Sherlock Holmes, etc. It is still good form to give attribution to the original author, but it is not necessary. I am not as familiar with H.P. Lovecraft's estate, but a quick look shows there is no evidence for "Pickman's Model" copyright being renewed. See Wikisource. So, I think you are good. One thing I should note, this only applies to published works of the time period. When it comes to unpublished works, things get a whole lot more complicated. |
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jakmon
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Post by jakmon on Aug 20, 2019 20:19:35 GMT -5
Somewhat related:
Now some of the writer’s own words are getting reworked in Amazon’s vast virtual bookstore, a place where copyright laws hold remarkably little sway. Orwell’s reputation may be secure, but his sentences are not.
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ramos
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Post by ramos on Feb 29, 2020 8:55:46 GMT -5
I have been pondering for a while now about this and searched the answer on the internet but found different answers. Ok, so let's say one wants to make a Conan website. Does he have to get Conan rights or Conan is now in the public domain?
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Post by Jason Aiken on Feb 29, 2020 11:14:31 GMT -5
Anyone can make a Conan fansite. Just be sure to put a disclaimer at the bottom of the page saying it's a fansite only.
Now if you are talking about selling Conan merchandise from it, I'm sure you'd get a pretty quick cease and desist.
Note: I'm not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
If you go by the Leslie Klinger - Sherlock Holmes ruling and apply that to Conan, Conan is in the public domain and one can write new Conan stories, etc.. but you would have to stick to material covered in the public domain stories. It's mostly just the stuff that was published after Howard died that isn't in the public domain.
Now, a lot of people like to say that Conan has been trademarked so this doesn't apply. From everything I read that's just simply not the case. A trademark is not meant to extend copyright and prevent works from falling into the public domain. Look at every comic cover, ever logo is trademarked. A trademark is: a symbol, word, or words legally registered or established by use as representing a company or product.. I fail to see how this effects a character who is in the public domain. As long as you avoid using the word Conan on the cover, etc... I think one would be okay, but like I said I'm not a lawyer and not giving legal advice. I also believe that Cabinet/REH Properties trademarked the names of the short stories.
Now...of course, the big companies like Disney Warner Brothers, etc... will fight this to the bitter end in court, as they have a lot at stake IP wise. I believe Mickey Mouse is coming into the public domain soon, too. The courts always cave and extend copyright law for Disney.
As for Cabinet and REH Properties, or whatever they are calling themselves these days, they aren't that big of a company, basically just an IP holding company making money off licensed products and hoping for that movie or tv deal that's never coming. They'd fight it in court, too.
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Post by scottoden on Feb 29, 2020 13:56:00 GMT -5
Jason said: "As for Cabinet and REH Properties, or whatever they are calling themselves these days, they aren't that big of a company, basically just an IP holding company making money off licensed products and hoping for that movie or tv deal that's never coming. They'd fight it in court, too."
An IP holding company owned by a multi-millonaire married to a lawyer. Myself, I wouldn't risk creating new stuff without their approval.
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ramos
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Post by ramos on Feb 29, 2020 14:44:40 GMT -5
Thanks for the info Furyan, I really appreciate it.
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Post by Jason Aiken on Feb 29, 2020 15:54:13 GMT -5
Jason said: "As for Cabinet and REH Properties, or whatever they are calling themselves these days, they aren't that big of a company, basically just an IP holding company making money off licensed products and hoping for that movie or tv deal that's never coming. They'd fight it in court, too." An IP holding company owned by a multi-millonaire married to a lawyer. Myself, I wouldn't risk creating new stuff without their approval. Yep, that's why none of this is likely to change. Ablaze is a good example of that. Once the Mouse is ready to enter the public domain, then we'll get a better sense where all of these pulp era characters whose stories entered the public domain but where the characters names have been trademarked actually stand. But like I said, Disney will apply pressure to change or amend the law. If a judge rules on whether a trademark can extend copyright and prevent others from making use of a character in a public domain work, then we'd have an answer. That's the main question that's never been tested because nobody has had the means or desire to combat corporations or their legal teams. "Does a trademark extend copyright?" Everything ive read seems to imply that's not what a trademark is used for. |
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Post by Jason Aiken on Feb 29, 2020 16:15:43 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2020 2:28:36 GMT -5
From what I can ascertain, all the stories published during REH's lifetime are now in Public Domain.
If you wanna do something with the characters beyond reprinting the yarns already in the Public Domain, especially if you're gonna make money out of it, you need to get some kinda approval from Cabinet Entertainment.
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Post by deepermagic on Mar 2, 2020 10:53:49 GMT -5
Yeah, everything you've said lines up with what I've researched as well. Courts are leery of allowing Trademarks to extend Copyrights. Technically it is legal to do whatever you want with Public Domain Conan. Problem is, as of now, because there has been no official declaration of what is and isn't in the PD, and because the IP holder has more money than you do, it behooves them to keep things messy as long as they can, even if it is legal. I bet if someone or company with the funds and determination decided to go toe to toe with Cabinet over copyright (and they were not transgressing the Trademark) that they would win. What's most likely though is that they'd find a very satisfactory settlement outside of court with Cabinet. The people who have gone to court and don't settle (like Klinger) have come out on top. A few other intriguing cases (like a case involving Tarzan) could have clarified things even more but have been settled out of court. The good news is that even if Conan is technically in the PD now, the mess will clear up in something like 10 to 15 years when they will without a doubt become Public Domain because it will have reached the limit. Of course that is unless some group like Disney messes things up again. Though I have been reading some encouraging things on that angle. Technically Disney could have kept on fighting for more time to be extended, but the fact that the Public Domain began again in 2019 without a fight signaled to PD advocates that Disney understood it to be a losing battle. Essentially, the difference between their influence in the 90's vs today is the internet. Steamboat Willie now enters the PD in three years. That was the stickler for Disney in '98. Whatever the case, as more things enter the PD I think we'll get a much more clear picture of what is and isn't acceptable to do when Trademarks are involved, especially on the internet. |
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Post by deepermagic on Mar 2, 2020 11:21:33 GMT -5
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Post by Jason Aiken on Mar 2, 2020 11:54:14 GMT -5
Yeah, everything you've said lines up with what I've researched as well. Courts are leery of allowing Trademarks to extend Copyrights. Technically it is legal to do whatever you want with Public Domain Conan. Problem is, as of now, because there has been no official declaration of what is and isn't in the PD, and because the IP holder has more money than you do, it behooves them to keep things messy as long as they can, even if it is legal. I bet if someone or company with the funds and determination decided to go toe to toe with Cabinet over copyright (and they were not transgressing the Trademark) that they would win. What's most likely though is that they'd find a very satisfactory settlement outside of court with Cabinet. The people who have gone to court and don't settle (like Klinger) have come out on top. A few other intriguing cases (like a case involving Tarzan) could have clarified things even more but have been settled out of court. The good news is that even if Conan is technically in the PD now, the mess will clear up in something like 10 to 15 years when they will without a doubt become Public Domain because it will have reached the limit. Of course that is unless some group like Disney messes things up again. Though I have been reading some encouraging things on that angle. Technically Disney could have kept on fighting for more time to be extended, but the fact that the Public Domain began again in 2019 without a fight signaled to PD advocates that Disney understood it to be a losing battle. Essentially, the difference between their influence in the 90's vs today is the internet. Steamboat Willie now enters the PD in three years. That was the stickler for Disney in '98. Whatever the case, as more things enter the PD I think we'll get a much more clear picture of what is and isn't acceptable to do when Trademarks are involved, especially on the internet. Deeper...I agree with you, it's all about the pocket book size. I think that if Ablaze had gone to court with Cabinet they would have probably won and been able to publish the Cimmerian comics without permission and maybe even do limited pastiche. It was in Cabinet's best interest to come to an arrangement I think...not Ablaze. You mentioned it already, but Edgar Rice Burroughs Inc and Dynamite had the exact same situation happen several years back. |
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Post by Jason Aiken on Mar 3, 2020 11:13:02 GMT -5
I need to go back and look at the individual issues (and dig them out of a box somewhere) but I don't believe that BOOM! licensed Hawks of Outremer.... leagueofcomicgeeks.com/comics/series/106266/hawks-of-outremerThis was not only an excellent series, but a great example of what can be done in comics with REH's stories that are in the public domain. I think that even if the legality of creating new fiction is yet to be firmly determined, series like this serve as a good example of just how good REH comic adaptations can be. |
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