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Post by Jason Aiken on Jun 27, 2023 6:35:44 GMT -5
Finishing up Return of the King (on the Scouring of the Shire) but boy am I surprised how much of a non-character Arwen is in Tolkien's novels. She's basically Aragorn's prize/reward for doing everything he did during the trilogy. He set out and did everything Elrond hoped, so Elrond (who is Aragorn's distant ancestor, too) allows him to have his daughter. No wonder Jackson and his writing partners were trying to do everything they could to expand the role in the original trilogy. They replaced Glorfindel with her in Fellowship for the save scene at the river, tried to have her at Helm's Deep during Two Towers before the footage leaked online and fans flipped out, and tied her to the fate of the ring in Return of the King. I had thought the original trilogy was fairly faithful, but oh, boy, was I wrong. Don't get me wrong, it's good enough, and you have to cut out some stuff from the novels, but jeez, they really tried forcing Arwen into something that was worthy of casting Liv Tyler. In the novels Eowyn gets far more attention and character development. Hopefully they keep that up in the War of the Rohhirim movie which she's doing the voice over for. I’m still smarting from Al Harron’s reaction when I said it was a good idea to replace Arwen for the random elf who rescued Frodo. I’m hoping if Glorfindel does show up in Rings of Power that they get him right. LOL, I guess Glorfindel is really only a big deal once you read the supporting material. www.resetera.com/threads/arwen-at-helms-deep-would-lord-of-the-rings-original-intention-for-the-character-have-stayed-intact-if-the-film-was-made-today.101035/I think the answer to the linked thread is, yes, and she'd probably be a member of the Fellowship, too. But I didn't realize you can still see her in the background of some scenes at Helm's Deep.
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Post by Von K on Jun 27, 2023 17:13:29 GMT -5
I guess PJ's original intention for Arwen in the film trilogy is a step on the path to his full on insertion of Tauriel into the Hobbit. Not the sort of thing that is out of place in a 'modern' D+D esque fantasy but which waters down the authenticity for true Tolkien fantasy. But PJ's Hobbit trilogy is a masterpiece compared with ... ahem, harrumph (bites tongue). Read an eloquent comment online awhile back from a female Tolkien fan who was major league annoyed that PJ switched out Glorfy for Arwen.
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Post by johnnypt on Jun 27, 2023 17:46:29 GMT -5
I guess PJ's original intention for Arwen in the film trilogy is a step on the path to his full on insertion of Tauriel into the Hobbit. Not the sort of thing that is out of place in a 'modern' D+D esque fantasy but which waters down the authenticity for true Tolkien fantasy. But PJ's Hobbit trilogy is a masterpiece compared with ... ahem, harrumph (bites tongue). Read an eloquent comment online awhile back from a female Tolkien fan who was major league annoyed that PJ switched out Glorfy for Arwen.
I think it was more from Phillipa and Fran than PJ. I think keeping Arwen mostly in her lane in LOTR helped ‘inspire’ Tauriel. I am on record as saying she could’ve been way worse in the hands of an actress who didn’t know Tolkien. Thankfully Evangeline was a fan and helped keep the character somewhat in line.
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Post by Von K on Jun 27, 2023 18:47:36 GMT -5
I guess PJ's original intention for Arwen in the film trilogy is a step on the path to his full on insertion of Tauriel into the Hobbit. Not the sort of thing that is out of place in a 'modern' D+D esque fantasy but which waters down the authenticity for true Tolkien fantasy. But PJ's Hobbit trilogy is a masterpiece compared with ... ahem, harrumph (bites tongue). Read an eloquent comment online awhile back from a female Tolkien fan who was major league annoyed that PJ switched out Glorfy for Arwen.
I think it was more from Phillipa and Fran than PJ. I think keeping Arwen mostly in her lane in LOTR helped ‘inspire’ Tauriel. I am on record as saying she could’ve been way worse in the hands of an actress who didn’t know Tolkien. Thankfully Evangeline was a fan and helped keep the character somewhat in line. When it comes to the Hobbit I'm mostly riffing on fan comments that I've encountered online since I've never seen the trilogy. Maybe the biggest problem they faced on that one was the studio insisting it be a trilogy and they had to pad it out accordingly.
From what you say it sounds like Evangeline's fan knowledge helped them keep the character half way there, but a dwarf elf romance featuring post modern sexual innuendo (from Tauriel) was probably a little offline. I checked out a clip on youtube - both the actors and the characters seem great - fantastic for a modern fantasy yarn set in another world than Tolkien's, but I don't think that was something the good Professor would have ever done.
You know way, way more about this than me though - I could easily just be talking outta my hat here.
Maybe I'm just being an old grump?
It made sense to switch out Glorfindel for Arwen in the LotR trilogy since he never plays any other role in the original trilogy. Using that scene to introduce Arwen was a reasonable choice from a narrative economy perspective, less so from the perspective of authenticity. Having Arwen at Helm's Deep would have been an ott decision imho. Even having the elves there was a bit of a stretch, the way they sashayed into Helm's Deep seemed a little shoehorned in but they still kind of managed to pull it off.
Nevertheless, both trilogies are fantastic feats of cinema, esp the first.
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Post by johnnypt on Jun 27, 2023 20:17:33 GMT -5
I think it was more from Phillipa and Fran than PJ. I think keeping Arwen mostly in her lane in LOTR helped ‘inspire’ Tauriel. I am on record as saying she could’ve been way worse in the hands of an actress who didn’t know Tolkien. Thankfully Evangeline was a fan and helped keep the character somewhat in line. When it comes to the Hobbit I'm mostly riffing on fan comments that I've encountered online since I've never seen the trilogy. Maybe the biggest problem they faced on that one was the studio insisting it be a trilogy and they had to pad it out accordingly.
From what you say it sounds like Evangeline's fan knowledge helped them keep the character half way there, but a dwarf elf romance featuring post modern sexual innuendo (from Tauriel) was probably a little offline. I checked out a clip on youtube - both the actors and the characters seem great - fantastic for a modern fantasy yarn set in another world than Tolkien's, but I don't think that was something the good Professor would have ever done.
You know way, way more about this than me though - I could easily just be talking outta my hat here.
Maybe I'm just being an old grump?
It made sense to switch out Glorfindel for Arwen in the LotR trilogy since he never plays any other role in the original trilogy. Using that scene to introduce Arwen was a reasonable choice from a narrative economy perspective, less so from the perspective of authenticity. Having Arwen at Helm's Deep would have been an ott decision imho. Even having the elves there was a bit of a stretch, the way they sashayed into Helm's Deep seemed a little shoehorned in but they still kind of managed to pull it off.
Nevertheless, both trilogies are fantastic feats of cinema, esp the first.
The appendix documentaries shed way more light on the Hobbit trilogy situation. It was partially the studios fault, but because they’d set the release date like everyone had to but the film was literally not finished! The battle of the Five Armies hadn’t been shot mere months before the release date so they had to move a lot into a third film. The addition of comic relief Arthur is more detrimental than Tauriel if you ask me. But the fact the trilogy came out even close to being watchable was a testament to Jackson’s skills as a film maker.
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Post by Von K on Jun 27, 2023 21:30:03 GMT -5
When it comes to the Hobbit I'm mostly riffing on fan comments that I've encountered online since I've never seen the trilogy. Maybe the biggest problem they faced on that one was the studio insisting it be a trilogy and they had to pad it out accordingly.
From what you say it sounds like Evangeline's fan knowledge helped them keep the character half way there, but a dwarf elf romance featuring post modern sexual innuendo (from Tauriel) was probably a little offline. I checked out a clip on youtube - both the actors and the characters seem great - fantastic for a modern fantasy yarn set in another world than Tolkien's, but I don't think that was something the good Professor would have ever done.
You know way, way more about this than me though - I could easily just be talking outta my hat here.
Maybe I'm just being an old grump?
It made sense to switch out Glorfindel for Arwen in the LotR trilogy since he never plays any other role in the original trilogy. Using that scene to introduce Arwen was a reasonable choice from a narrative economy perspective, less so from the perspective of authenticity. Having Arwen at Helm's Deep would have been an ott decision imho. Even having the elves there was a bit of a stretch, the way they sashayed into Helm's Deep seemed a little shoehorned in but they still kind of managed to pull it off.
Nevertheless, both trilogies are fantastic feats of cinema, esp the first.
The appendix documentaries shed way more light on the Hobbit trilogy situation. It was partially the studios fault, but because they’d set the release date like everyone had to but the film was literally not finished! The battle of the Five Armies hadn’t been shot mere months before the release date so they had to move a lot into a third film. The addition of comic relief Arthur is more detrimental than Tauriel if you ask me. But the fact the trilogy came out even close to being watchable was a testament to Jackson’s skills as a film maker. Thanks for the xtra info johnnypt! A more complicated situation than I thought.
One of these days I'm going to have to catch up with the second trilogy first hand rather than just talking out of my hat and riffing on the patchwork of third party commentary I've heard. Some of those commenters are often quite accurate but it's been years since I've reviewed their material on it. Second trilogy seems to have been quite well received by the audience on Rotten Tomatoes.
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Post by johnnypt on Jun 28, 2023 4:49:00 GMT -5
It’s a mixed bag to be sure. I’d advise going right to the extended editions, especially for Battle of Five Armies. They literally did not have time for Thorin’s funeral until after the movie came out. If I were to make any edits, I would do it from the longer versions (if that makes any sense).
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Post by KiramidHead on Jun 28, 2023 15:44:34 GMT -5
Five Armies was like watching a whole new movie in the extended version.
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Post by Von K on Jun 28, 2023 15:50:45 GMT -5
Thanks for the recommendation guys. I will bear that in mind when I finally track it down for a viewing.
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Post by johnnypt on Jun 28, 2023 18:23:53 GMT -5
Five Armies was like watching a whole new movie in the extended version. I was so disappointed at the running time when it came out. 143 minutes almost didn’t seem to be worth it! The 164 minutes of the extended edition is far more satisfying.
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Post by johnnypt on Jun 29, 2023 6:22:58 GMT -5
Thanks for the recommendation guys. I will bear that in mind when I finally track it down for a viewing. I understand their thinking going in to include the bits and pieces Tolkien added in later to tie it more closely to LOTR. Things just kind of got away from them and it took a lot of work to rein it in. There’s a good hour that could likely be trimmed out.
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Post by KiramidHead on Jun 29, 2023 12:05:39 GMT -5
And weirdly, I felt Desolation was a bit worse in the longer version. The extended Mirkwood scene was just annoying, and Stephen Fry munching on testicles was just too much.
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Post by johnnypt on Jun 29, 2023 12:25:46 GMT -5
And weirdly, I felt Desolation was a bit worse in the longer version. The extended Mirkwood scene was just annoying, and Stephen Fry munching on testicles was just too much. There’s a LOT of Laketown material that’d have to go. I did an edit in my head as I was watching it one time and figured out the scenes absolutely needed for coherent story telling. There’s quite a bit that can go and you wouldn’t miss it.
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Post by johnnypt on Jul 15, 2023 15:01:53 GMT -5
Well like it or not, come next year, Rings of Power may be one of the only games in town. They’re one of the few who completely finished production before the actors strike. I think House of the Dragon might have been close to being done as well.
Technology’s moving fast. Normally I’m not too into whatever the sides argue about. But with a lot of this dealing with technology, you can”r wait around, you have to get in front of things and lay out SOME rules, for however long they last.
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Post by Von K on Jul 15, 2023 18:36:49 GMT -5
Well like it or not, come next year, Rings of Power may be one of the only games in town. They’re one of the few who completely finished production before the actors strike. I think House of the Dragon might have been close to being done as well. Technology’s moving fast. Normally I’m not too into whatever the sides argue about. But with a lot of this dealing with technology, you can”r wait around, you have to get in front of things and lay out SOME rules, for however long they last. House of the Dragon is still filming in the UK it seems: Why House of the Dragon season 2 will still film amid the SAG-AFTRA strikeew.com/tv/house-of-the-dragon-season-2-still-filming-sag-actors-strike/
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