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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2020 8:37:19 GMT -5
The salting of Carthage was very much a myth. The city was ultimately abandoned however when the harbour silted over and a new city founded nearby.
This was a problem for a lot of cities and the Romans spent considerable money trying to clear the harbour of Ostia which supplied Rome before also abandoning it and founding a new city not far away so Rome could have a proper harbour.
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Post by kemp on Aug 9, 2020 6:20:52 GMT -5
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Benjamin Franklin
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Post by kemp on Aug 15, 2020 8:33:27 GMT -5
Some people believe that Civilization operates in a monotonic ‘upward march of progress’. That is, that progress simply goes forward, but I think that in times of crisis or decline, if a civilization doesn’t entirely fall apart, parts of it may survive, thrive and develop in different ways. When the far reaching Roman Empire collapsed, technological and cultural elements of that ancient civilization went into decline, the Roman roads became disused, but other aspects survived, such as the Latin script which came to be used widely in Europe. Medieval Europe was essentially an amalgam of classical and nomadic cultures, alongside new discoveries, there was also the rediscovery of ancient technologies, especially during the Renaissance. In much the same way, some parts of our industrial civilization may go into decline, we may never be able to revive the airline industry to its former levels of global operation, but regional ingenuity may see new innovations spring up in a post industrial setting, even in the worst situations. I originally depicted a homemade wind generator made from various scrapped components, but on second inspection thought it was a bit of a bore, albeit practical and ingenious in its own way. Thus revised, I give you the future of modified tech. The Pursuit Special, last of the V8 Interceptors, the black GT Falcon muscle car featuring a distinctive supercharger.
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Post by kemp on Aug 19, 2020 3:58:23 GMT -5
One of my favourite Mad Max technologies was the gyrocopter from the second movie.
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Post by zarono on Aug 21, 2020 8:06:39 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2020 13:54:09 GMT -5
Some people believe that Civilization operates in a monotonic ‘upward march of progress’. That is, that progress simply goes forward, but I think that in times of crisis or decline, if a civilization doesn’t entirely fall apart, parts of it may survive, thrive and develop in different ways. When the far reaching Roman Empire collapsed, technological and cultural elements of that ancient civilization went into decline, the Roman roads became disused, but other aspects survived, such as the Latin script which came to be used widely in Europe. Medieval Europe was essentially an amalgam of classical and nomadic cultures, alongside new discoveries, there was also the rediscovery of ancient technologies, especially during the Renaissance. In much the same way, some parts of our industrial civilization may go into decline, we may never be able to revive the airline industry to its former levels of global operation, but regional ingenuity may see new innovations spring up in a post industrial setting, even in the worst situations. I originally depicted a homemade wind generator made from various scrapped components, but on second inspection thought it was a bit of a bore, albeit practical and ingenious in its own way. Thus revised, I give you the future of modified tech. The Pursuit Special, last of the V8 Interceptors, the black GT Falcon muscle car featuring a distinctive supercharger. The collapse of the Roman empire never caused a collapse of technology, in fact technology kept moving forwards in things like farming, warfare and sailing. It was only in art and trade that we see a slowdown. There is no point in maintaining Roman roads when you are trying to maintain your borders and not trading with your neighbours. Art also saw a massive shift towards a Germanic style rather than Roman which is why it looks like it didn't advance since Roman style art wasn't pushed forwards anymore until the renaissance.
Remember, the dark ages are called that because there is a lack of written records(the Romans made records of everything) not because there was a reversal of technology. We have never gone backwards in terms of technology.
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Post by kemp on Aug 22, 2020 4:44:04 GMT -5
I agree that the term ‘Dark Ages’ was simply a label stuck on the early medieval era due to a lack of written records, but I have to disagree at least in part that ‘we have never gone backwards in terms of technology.’ There have been periods where we have seen some reversal in technological aspects, for instance, the pyramids built after the Egyptian Fourth Dynasty were not on the same scale and achievement as those built earlier, consider the great Giza pyramid complex. Going back to Rome, and to concentrate on one aspect, there was some reduction in the iron producing technology following the collapse of the Roman Empire, for instance some of the Roman mines, such as Noricum, where good iron ore was procured , fell into disuse. For a time European miners adopted less efficient methods than those employed by the Romans. Ores were extracted only from shallow depths or from remnants of former abandoned mines. The Norse knew of mining and even mined some iron ore, but during the first centuries of the middle ages they were frequently forced to employ inferior bog iron ore, of course smiths invented ingenious ways to work the material, such as forge welding iron and steel strips together, to produce arms such as the famed and very effective Viking swords. They Norse also produced the graceful Viking longships used to navigate vast distances in seas and channels. This is an example of localised technology suited to a particular cultural need and way of living. In the 9th century with an increased need of metal for agriculture and arms, we started to get metallurgical progress, an increase in smelting sites for instance, also new mines being discovered. I think it is a complex subject. Some technologies are lost, others abandoned for various social and economic reasons, such as the limited supersonic travel of the twentieth century, some technologies are rediscovered and innovated into new and different ways, but I don’t believe there is simply an uninterrupted linear forward line of progress when it comes to civilization or technology for that matter.
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Post by kemp on Aug 22, 2020 4:53:40 GMT -5
Currently, much of the world economy has been gutted due to the political actions, wrong or right, in connection with the Sars CoV 2 virus, and we have yet to see the full repercussions of that on modern civilization.
I think the biggest illusion is holding onto the belief that we are somehow different and immune to the declines that effected other civilizations in the past. Considering the current hysteria and civil unrest that has played out in the last half year I would argue the opposite.
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Post by kemp on Aug 22, 2020 4:55:30 GMT -5
As a side note, much of what we call Roman technology was also borrowed and adapted from other, earlier cultures. The aforementioned Noricum, was a Celtic centre, conquered by the Romans, it was the Celts that quarried the mountains of Austria to produce the ‘Noric steel’ that was widely used in the production for the weapons of the Roman military. The Celts were mining early on, in fact as early as around 800 BC, Iron Age Hallstatt culture.
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Post by kemp on Aug 22, 2020 20:32:00 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2020 7:59:00 GMT -5
I agree that the term ‘Dark Ages’ was simply a label stuck on the early medieval era due to a lack of written records, but I have to disagree at least in part that ‘we have never gone backwards in terms of technology.’ There have been periods where we have seen some reversal in technological aspects, for instance, the pyramids built after the Egyptian Fourth Dynasty were not on the same scale and achievement as those built earlier, consider the great Giza pyramid complex. Going back to Rome, and to concentrate on one aspect, there was some reduction in the iron producing technology following the collapse of the Roman Empire, for instance some of the Roman mines, such as Noricum, where good iron ore was procured , fell into disuse. For a time European miners adopted less efficient methods than those employed by the Romans. Ores were extracted only from shallow depths or from remnants of former abandoned mines. The Norse knew of mining and even mined some iron ore, but during the first centuries of the middle ages they were frequently forced to employ inferior bog iron ore, of course smiths invented ingenious ways to work the material, such as forge welding iron and steel strips together, to produce arms such as the famed and very effective Viking swords. They Norse also produced the graceful Viking longships used to navigate vast distances in seas and channels. This is an example of localised technology suited to a particular cultural need and way of living. In the 9th century with an increased need of metal for agriculture and arms, we started to get metallurgical progress, an increase in smelting sites for instance, also new mines being discovered. I think it is a complex subject. Some technologies are lost, others abandoned for various social and economic reasons, such as the limited supersonic travel of the twentieth century, some technologies are rediscovered and innovated into new and different ways, but I don’t believe there is simply an uninterrupted linear forward line of progress when it comes to civilization or technology for that matter. I'm going to have to disagree with you on some of your points. Many of your examples have been explained by archaeologists, such as the mines being abandoned because the technology did not allow to keep using the mines because of how deep they had already gone. There are Gold mines in Spain that were abandoned by the Romans and started to be used again because new technology allowed us to reach gold they could never have and they continue to be used to this day.
The pyramids also had to be scaled back in size because Egypt was no longer an isolated region and had to basically stop spending all their money on pyramids when they had borders to defend. Plus pyramids made really good markers for thieves where they could get easy treasure. Outside pressures often cause culture to be affected since protection is more important.
The way I see it technology has always moved forward, just maybe not in a straight line. New technologies appears and maybe they don't get used immediately but they have an influence later on. But then we also have cases like Japan who intentionally blocked themselves off and rejected new technology to maintain their way of life.
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Post by kemp on Aug 24, 2020 3:08:35 GMT -5
I'm going to have to disagree with you on some of your points. Many of your examples have been explained by archaeologists, such as the mines being abandoned because the technology did not allow to keep using the mines because of how deep they had already gone. There are Gold mines in Spain that were abandoned by the Romans and started to be used again because new technology allowed us to reach gold they could never have and they continue to be used to this day.
The pyramids also had to be scaled back in size because Egypt was no longer an isolated region and had to basically stop spending all their money on pyramids when they had borders to defend. Plus pyramids made really good markers for thieves where they could get easy treasure. Outside pressures often cause culture to be affected since protection is more important.
The way I see it technology has always moved forward, just maybe not in a straight line. New technologies appears and maybe they don't get used immediately but they have an influence later on. But then we also have cases like Japan who intentionally blocked themselves off and rejected new technology to maintain their way of life.
I suppose it’s one of those agree to disagree moments. Mining and metal working techniques, whether we are talking about the final years of the Roman Empire era or early middle ages have been covered not only by archaeologists, but also by experts in the field of archaeometallurgy. That the mines were closed has been well documented, not so much because of how deep they went with the mines, but also because of the migratory disruptions and collapse of an empire organised along certain modes of operation. This meant that for some centuries those mining techniques were largely abandoned, wide scale mining production only started up again in the 8th to 9th centuries. If that was not the case, they would have simply opened up new extensive mines in the 5th to 6th centuries once an area was depleted. This work ‘Metallurgy, Europe. In: Encyclopedia of Society and Culture in the Medieval World’ by Thilo Rehren, Professor for Archaeological Materials and Director of the Science and Technology in Archaeology Research Center, Nicosia, Cyprus, and Marcos Martinon-Torres from the University of Cambridge, Archaeology ‘The decline of the Roman Empire and the related weakening of the central authority that began in the third century led to a regional fragmentation of the metallurgical industry. Although miners and smelters continued to serve local needs, they generally worked at a small scale, leaving little room for technological innovation. This decline affected particularly silver, lead, copper, and tin; iron and steel were still necessary for axes, knives, spades, and plowshares. Not until the ninth century, when the political situation became relatively more stable, did the metallurgical innovations associated with the Middle Ages start to appear.’ www.academia.edu/33724538/Metallurgy_Europe_Martinon_Torres_and_Rehren_2008_in_Encyclopedia_of_Society_and_Culture_in_the_Medieval_World_You noted ‘Outside pressures often cause culture to be affected since protection is more important.’ There are many pressures on a civilization, both external and internal, that may effect and influence the technological development of a society, again decline, progress, or new technological innovations, if that was not so, we wouldn’t have the remains of various ancient urban areas abandoned and left in ruins littered across the globe, in many cases the locals had also lost or abandoned some of the stone working technologies used in the construction of these cities.
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Post by kemp on Aug 24, 2020 3:16:11 GMT -5
‘Arguably the New World’s most advanced pre-Columbian civilization, the Maya carved large stone cities into the jungles of southern Mexico and Central America, complete with elaborate plazas, palaces, pyramid-temples and ball courts. Known for their hieroglyphic writing, as well as their calendar-making, mathematics, astronomy and architecture skills, the Maya reached the peak of their influence during the so-called Classic Period, from around A.D. 250 to A.D. 900. But at the end of the Classic Period, in one of history’s great enigmas, the populace suddenly deposed its kings, abandoned the cities and ceased with technological innovation. Dozens of theories have been put forth to explain what happened. Some historians, for instance, point to a major drought, exacerbated by deforestation and soil erosion, as the impetus for the societal collapse, while others put the blame on a disease epidemic, a peasant revolt against an increasingly corrupt ruling class, constant warfare among the various city-states, a breakdown of trade routes or some combination thereof. Though dispersed, the Maya never disappeared. Millions of their Mayan-speaking descendants continue to inhabit the region to this day.’ www.history.com/news/6-civilizations-that-mysteriously-collapsed
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Post by Char-Vell on Sept 15, 2020 11:09:08 GMT -5
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Post by zarono on Sept 15, 2020 12:00:59 GMT -5
I'd rather be drugged than listen to canned robot prattle all day.
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