|
Post by boot on Apr 3, 2021 16:40:01 GMT -5
The reason I wanna see the Picts later on the series is that I really don't wanna see another origin of Conan on screen. I prefer to see the grandeur and decadence of the Hyborian Kingdoms through the eyes of a young, daring, cunning and thieving Conan. I agree. We don't need an origin story. Keep it a mystery. Let it come out in bits an pieces, if at all, like it does in the stories. I always thought it a good idea to do it in flashbacks akin to the first (and marvelous) Highlander movie. Picture a movie based on The Tower of the Elephant. In a streamed series format, think of it in terms of the first story arc. Do the Tower of the Elephant, as Howard told it, but flesh out the story with new material, the way Dark Horse would integrate Conan stories to a bigger whole. During the story, flash back at times as Conan is speaking to it or reminded about his past--as was done with Highlander. Cut to a few minute scene about Venarium, then go back to the TotE tale. Later on, cut to a young Conan sitting around a campfire with his clansmen, listening to his grandfather orate about his travels and wanderlust, then go back to the TotE tale. At some point later, do a segment showing Conan run with the Aesir, then go back to the main story. Etc.
|
|
|
Post by kemp on Apr 3, 2021 16:41:19 GMT -5
The other week I watched the 1954 movie Apache, where Burt Lancaster played an Apache warrior trying to get back to his homeland after being captured and transported to a reservation. The white pursuers where often depicted as conniving, untrustworthy and full of schemes and murderous intent, but I enjoyed the movie and story. I didn't come away from the movie thinking that all white people were shit and not to be trusted.
In all honesty you could say that REH's Picts had the worst aspects of savages from both sides of the Atlantic, the eastern native tribes element was not overly overt, and in only a few of the later Conan stories as noted by johnnypt, not the representation I normally get reading the other material on Picts by Howard.
That REH essay I quoted earlier certainly did not have anything native American about it. For instance, take the name Gorm who goes onto becoming the overlord of a vast and savage Pictish empire, the only real world equivalents I can find for the name are mainly in Denmark, Gorm is also Gaelic for blue as in Cairngorm.
At the end of the day the Picts, despite their swarthy appearance, belonged to a white race of early western Europe. Anyone and everyone could get offended. After all, REH's most popular Pict was Bran Mak Morn. That has zero Iroquois in it.
|
|
|
Post by kemp on Apr 3, 2021 16:45:06 GMT -5
Ditto on the no origin story for Conan.
|
|
|
Post by KiramidHead on Apr 3, 2021 17:06:50 GMT -5
The only origin story a show would really need is a brief opening shot of Conan walking out of the Cimmerian hills with some epic opening narration. Boom, done. I'll take my paycheck now, Netflix.
|
|
|
Post by johnnypt on Apr 3, 2021 19:02:32 GMT -5
A quick montage that ends with Venarium, no more than two minutes, but it doesn't have to be in the first episode. They can always refer back to his younger episodes anywhere along the way.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2021 19:57:33 GMT -5
I think we need to keep in mind that although the picts were based on Native Americans, they were an exaggeration for a fictional world Howard created. There is no risk of offending Natives, since the picts are not native. And who is going to watch this show and start comparing them to Native tribes except those who have read the stories and probably accept it as it is.
The producers should not be afraid to pull elements from Native American culture though, just as they should from any other culture. Nobody wants to see the picts be a copy of historical Native tribes, but what is wrong with some influences? How will having fictional characters with some slight similarities to historical Natives affect modern Natives? It's not like Netflix is going to make the show explicitly racist, this seems like an argument not worth getting worked up about, especially since for all we know there might be huge changes to the people's in the show to give the show a more fantasy feel instead of a historical one. Like I said in an earlier post, Netflix will do what makes money and that means changing the Hyborian world as we know it then they will.
|
|
|
Post by robp on Apr 4, 2021 3:12:45 GMT -5
The only reason to have any type of origin story, even if it's just a brief flashback, is to move viewer perceptions away from the the ridiculous Wheel of Pain or tired old "revenge for killing my family" set ups of the movies
|
|
|
Post by BlackHeart on Apr 4, 2021 4:44:42 GMT -5
I have always had the impression that Howard gave his Hiborian Picts some characteristics of native Indians, in terms of arranging a primitive society that is literally on the verge of the Stone Age, and the influence of frontier stories on his writing about them is indisputable. But it is absolutely impossible for me to imagine them as the Iroquois or any other tribe. I repeat once again, picts would be best portrayed as vendols from 13 Warrior - they are certainly reminiscent of a prehistoric tribe that lasted until recently, they are not exactly white, they are brutal and exactly what we need for the Conan TV series. And I believe that someone else here would agree with me. As for the representation of individual races, history is full of beastly examples when it comes to any race, regardless of skin color, religion or nation - there are no good and bad, mostly all (to some extent) are bad ... The history of mankind is written blood. I am a white man, who rarely in many old or new films, when it comes to the clash of cultures, cheers for the white people, which are often portrayed as bad guys or conquerors. On the other hand, let's not forget the Mongol invasion of Europe (my country long ago fought with them in the Middle Ages and defeated them on a couple of occasions), the jihad of the Ottoman Turks (that's where the imperial ambitions of Howard's Turanians come from), let's not forget the cannibalistic tribes of Africa, nor Viking incursions and conquests ... Should any of us across the world feel offended if someone in the film shows exactly what our ancestors did? That's stupid. Interracial hatred, although a great evil, has been present in the world for millennia, religious fanaticism as well, and what not. I am a Christian, and I often enjoy the movie Kingdom of Heaven, where Europeans and Christians are bad guys. Was I offended by that? No way! Skin color and faith do not make us good or bad people. Our beliefs, code and honor (less and less present in man today) if what makes us. The world viewed through pink glasses, the sun and the rainbow, belong to Disney fairy tales, not in the hyborian age. In the end, I don't understand so much concern of individuals about receiving this series ... GoT was anything but a politically correct story, and the world still went crazy for it. When they finally started looking at correctness and other nonsense, the series lost a lot of its quality. I wouldn't want that to happen to Conan. All the more so because Conan is the Essential Antithesis to everything that angry minorities are trying to impose on modern society today. All this does not mean that certain races should be presented as primordially evil - this isnt childish, but a realistic story despite its surreal milieu in which it takes place. A skilled writer / screenwriter can present all that without again dividing anyone into good and bad guys. On one side they are always evil and good, and on the other good and evil. This is how the human world has been functioning since it existed.
|
|
|
Post by bulbous on Apr 4, 2021 12:34:53 GMT -5
Actually, for the Picts in "Beyond the Black River", Howard based his conception on them on the Comanche and the stories he heard about the Comanche fighting for their land in North and Central Texas, and not the Iroquois. If you take the historical Picts of Northern England/Scotland and give them the viciousness and skill of the Comanche, you'd have some extremely interesting characters to play with.
|
|
|
Post by BlackHeart on Apr 4, 2021 12:46:27 GMT -5
My point exacly, bulbous. Mix the two and you'll get something unique. More if you realy present them physically as an ancient, forgotten race wich they should do. Certainly not as identical modern people of today, we are still talking about prehistory.
|
|
|
Post by lordyam on Apr 4, 2021 17:25:43 GMT -5
I mentioned the Mauraders trilogy that Jeff Marriotte did for the AOC MMO. It shows the Picts as scary but also possessing more nuance (they actually DO try to honor the truce before the villain of book 1 engineers a vicious massacre of innocent picts and steals a sacred artifact). DH also had Nai the witch as a likable character. I'm saying that if they had elements like those there would be less complaints.
In general I'm leery of a lot of complaining about "SJW's". Context is important, and while it is possible to do it BADLY (see the New Guardians DC did in the 80s) you shouldn't disregard that other POC might consider something hurtful and offensive. Jack Shaheen did a book about how Arabs are portrayed in Media. The main thrust is that Arabs are usually portrayed as one of four archetypes; sleazy buffoons, sexy belly dancers, murderous terrorists, and corrupt billionaires. One of them in a story isn't necessarily a problem. When EVERY single portrayal is one of those than it becomes an issue.
Basically context is key, and being completely dismissive of the fact that PoC might take offense is....kinda dickish.
|
|
|
Post by boot on Apr 4, 2021 18:20:28 GMT -5
Basically context is key, and being completely dismissive of the fact that PoC might take offense is....kinda dickish. You can make your point without insulting those who do not hold your opinion. I don't see anyone calling you a snowflake.
|
|
|
Post by BlackHeart on Apr 5, 2021 2:14:24 GMT -5
We will not be rude here š I respect everyone's opinion, and I don't expect everyone to agree with mine. That is why I will use my personal example here, and say that I am a Serb, a former soldier and someone who unfortunately has a good insight into world politics (we will not politicize here). I watched a lot of movies where Serbs are terrorists, or villains, so again I never said I was offended or felt offended by it. It is a movie - someone tells a story through it and in the service of that story there must be an antagonistic side. And yet, nowhere are Hollywood achievements celebrated anymore than in my country. I understand your concern for POC, lordyam but I donāt think cinema has achieved anything good since it started worshiping the sjw sect. On the contrary - everyone is tired of the fact that the story is being sacrificed in order to push minorities to the forefront. I know a lot of these same representatives of minorities, I am not a racist or a religious fanatic, and thwre are NOT MANY among them that are. There are few people who are affected by such things. The one donāt have to act like a snowflake just to please one handful of people in the world. Humanity is something bigger than them.
|
|
|
Post by robp on Apr 5, 2021 4:20:14 GMT -5
"everyone is tired of the fact that the story is being sacrificed in order to push minorities to the forefront. "
But there it is again. Who, exactly, is in the minority? Why is one group considered "normal" and everyone else in the world is "diverse?"
|
|
|
Post by kemp on Apr 5, 2021 4:22:39 GMT -5
The easiest thing is not to worry about pleasing any particular group. Myself, I don't bend the knee for any race or put one race above another. Every group of people have been conquerors or victims at one time or another at some point in time, or do we make the Italians pay up for the Roman Empire .
|
|