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Post by Jason Aiken on Jun 8, 2017 14:47:44 GMT -5
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Post by johnnypt on Jun 13, 2017 7:08:41 GMT -5
Oh Farnsworth...you had the sequel to the Dark Man appear two months BEFORE the first one was published!
TDM is one of the keystone tales in the wider Howard mythos. It functions as a sequel to both Spears of Clontarf/Grey God Passes as well as Kings of the Night. Incidents and characters from both stories are directly mentioned. It's quite a melancholy tale, the promised "rescue" never happens. The statue of Bran has some similarities to Excalibur or Thor's hammer, only the worthy can lift it. Plus we find out the Bran who led his people heroically in Kings came to a brutal end. The seeds sown here about that end were picked up in Worms of the Earth.
It also is an interesting counterpoint to Beyond the Black River a few years to compare how Howard's views may have shifted. There, barbarism survives while civilization is overrun. Here, it's the barbarians' way of life that is waning and dying out and the civilizing factor of Christianity is ascendant. He may have carried the theme over from the then unpublished Grey God, along with Black Turlough. This is another example of how you really need to study Howard's published and unpublished writings to get the full picture. I would suggest reading Spears and/or Grey God with this story, preferably before.
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Post by elegos7 on Jun 13, 2017 14:29:46 GMT -5
TDM is one of the keystone tales in the wider Howard mythos. It functions as a sequel to both Spears of Clontarf/Grey God Passes as well as Kings of the Night. Incidents and characters from both stories are directly mentioned. I would suggest reading Spears and/or Grey God with this story, preferably before. I would rather call Spears of Clontarf/Grey God Passes a prequel to TDM. TDM and Kings of the Night were both written around February 1930, whereas Spears of Clontarf only in May 1931. When it failed to sell, it was rewritten in December 1931 to Grey God Passes (and then to The Cairn on the Headland). |
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Post by johnnypt on Jun 13, 2017 18:55:29 GMT -5
TDM is one of the keystone tales in the wider Howard mythos. It functions as a sequel to both Spears of Clontarf/Grey God Passes as well as Kings of the Night. Incidents and characters from both stories are directly mentioned. I would suggest reading Spears and/or Grey God with this story, preferably before. I would rather call Spears of Clontarf/Grey God Passes a prequel to TDM. TDM and Kings of the Night were both written around February 1930, whereas Spears of Clontarf only in May 1931. When it failed to sell, it was rewritten in December 1931 to Grey God Passes (and then to The Cairn on the Headland). Cool, I was wondering exactly when those were written. Also wondering when the Ballad of King Geriant was written since (a) Black Turlough who uses an axe turns up there as well. I ended up reading Geriant/Grey God/Dark Man/Bal-Sagoth/Shadow of the Hun in that order today. |
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Post by elegos7 on Jun 13, 2017 23:44:05 GMT -5
I would rather call Spears of Clontarf/Grey God Passes a prequel to TDM. TDM and Kings of the Night were both written around February 1930, whereas Spears of Clontarf only in May 1931. When it failed to sell, it was rewritten in December 1931 to Grey God Passes (and then to The Cairn on the Headland). Cool, I was wondering exactly when those were written. Also wondering when the Ballad of King Geriant was written since (a) Black Turlough who uses an axe turns up there as well. I ended up reading Geriant/Grey God/Dark Man/Bal-Sagoth/Shadow of the Hun in that order today. The Ballad of King Geraint was written probably in the summer of 1929. So this could be the first mention of Black Turlough. Then came the short fragment (The Dane came in…) at the start of 1930, followed by TDM, Kings of the Night, Bal-Sagoth. The Shadow of the Hun fragment also dates from the spring of 1930. |
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Post by johnnypt on Jun 14, 2017 7:15:53 GMT -5
The fragment certainly seems to be situated somewhere between Clontarf and TDM, so not surprising it's "first" in a way.
When you look at the way Howard wrote, there is certainly a pattern to it: Kings springs from TDM, then Bal-Sagoth comes after that. The same way you had a stretch of Conan stories that comes one after the other based on an idea from the previous story: Scarlet Citadel >Queen of the Black Coast>Black Colossus>Iron Shadows>Xuthal.
Moira's fate is similar to the girl in Exile of Atlantis, only she takes matters into her own hands.
If there were ever to be a Bran film, using the Dark Man statue as a conceit to delve in the history of the Picts could be a good way to go.
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Post by elegos7 on Jun 14, 2017 13:58:35 GMT -5
The fragment certainly seems to be situated somewhere between Clontarf and TDM, so not surprising it's "first" in a way. When you look at the way Howard wrote, there is certainly a pattern to it: Kings springs from TDM, then Bal-Sagoth comes after that. The same way you had a stretch of Conan stories that comes one after the other based on an idea from the previous story: Scarlet Citadel >Queen of the Black Coast>Black Colossus>Iron Shadows>Xuthal. The mention of Conan's piratical days in Scarlet Citadel was indeed probably the springboard for Queen of the Black Coast. But what ideas do you have in mind that serve as the basis of the next story in the Queen of the Black Coast>Black Colossus>Iron Shadows>Xuthal series? |
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Post by johnnypt on Jun 14, 2017 15:00:23 GMT -5
Some threads are certainly stronger than others. The Amra mention in SC is a pretty strong one.
In Queen he mentions his life as a mercenary, the next Conan story he's a mercenary. Whether it's before or after, it's up to each reader (I place it before Queen)
I'm trying to remember exactly what it was about Black Colossus that struck me, I think it was something about Koth (which also goes back to SC), so Conan is part of an army against Koth in the next story.
In IS, he's fighting for a rebel prince of Koth. In Xuthal, he's fighting for either the same or another rebel prince and its destructive conclusion seems to cure him of fighting for any more rebel princes of Koth. Rebel princes of Zingara come later...
Howard didn't let things go to waste, he got them into print one way or another. Either he'd take ideas and put them in one of his next stories (the Clontarf material went through how many iterations before Cairn? The two stories and several other mentions), or flat out rewrote it as a different character. This story has his ideas about Bran and the Picts that he'd been working on probably since he was in high school.
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Post by philzilla on Jun 17, 2017 12:51:27 GMT -5
So how does this work? When July rolls around jump in?
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Post by Jason Aiken on Jun 17, 2017 13:37:19 GMT -5
So how does this work? When July rolls around jump in? Jump in whenever. I just made it for July so that anyone wanting to participate would have enough time to read the story. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2017 15:19:27 GMT -5
I must've had this story in a few different books. I think it was included in a British Kull collection that was floating around in the 70s, probably for the Brule connection. I actually read Roy Thomas' Conan version in Savage Tales before reading the original.   ...... The Dark Man (Panther Books) • Cover art by ??The same here. I read the Conan version in Savage Tales before reading the original tale.  |
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Post by Jason Aiken on Jul 1, 2017 18:07:16 GMT -5
This was my first time reading “The Dark Man,” I decided to read it in The Best of Robert E. Howard Volume 1: Crimson Shadows, as the Del Rey collection contains some excellent interior illustrations by Jim and Ruth Keegan. Overall I was pretty impressed with this historical sword & sorcery tale. It’s difficult to not draw comparisons between Black Turlogh and Howard’s most famous creation, Conan, so I’ll just get that out of the way right here. I’m not surprised in the least that “The Dark Man” was adapted into a Conan comic story back in the Marvel days. It’s been a while since I’ve read any of the Conan yarns, but Black Turlogh comes off as an even bigger bastard than Conan in this. The Celtic rage he went into during the climax of “The Dark Man” seems to be a few shades redder than even the Cimmerian’s. It’s also interesting to note that Turlogh isn’t a wanderer by choice, but was driven out of Clan O’Brien due to the jealousy of his clansmen. This makes him somewhat of a tragic and sympathetic character. I also like that he fought at Clontarf, that’s a nice touch. I thought the story itself was a fairly strong one that puts an interesting twist on “the hero’s quest” plot. Unlike most macguffins, Black Turlogh didn’t intend to set out and find the Dark Man statue, but rather stumbles upon it thanks to fate. His quest is to rescue Moira, but just so happens to find the supernatural object that can aide him in finding her along the way. I haven’t read any of the Bran Mak Morn stories, but it was still cool to see Howard bringing two of his creations together like this. I don’t know a lot about Bran, but during the course of the story, the statue definitely gave off some kind of weighty, otherworldy presence, which is a testament to REH’s talent as a writer. One thing I was a bit disappointed in was the closing battle scene where Turlogh and the Picts defeat the Norsemen. It was basically Turlogh attacking with the element of surprise and the Picts acting as his support and cutting down the enemy whenever they could. I was hoping for some better choreography on REH’s part, but I guess I can’t fault him too much for that, due to the nature of the scene not requiring or calling for it due to the surprise attack. I was expecting Turlogh to save Moira, but I think his failure makes for a much better and realistic story. It shows that while Turlogh is strong, he’s not perfect or faultless in his endeavors. The Saxon Athelstane seemed a bit out of place in the story, though. Was this an attempt to include a famous historical figure on REH’s part? Was he implying this incident turned Athelstane off paganism thanks to Moira’s suicide, and the Norsemen’s defeat, and the priest sheltering and caring for him? I can’t wait to see Black Turlogh in action again in “The Gods of Bal-Sagoth” and hopefully learn some more about him.  |
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Post by Von K on Jul 3, 2017 13:19:17 GMT -5
Been a long time since I read this yarn. I’d forgotten how awesome it is. My edition is the Panther one as illustrated in Kail's post above.
The Dark Man strikes me as one of the signature tales in REH’s opus, bringing together three of his favourite themes, the Gaels and the Picts and the outcast hero, in a historical dark fantasy which remains unique even among his own work, let alone historical fantasy in general.
Turlogh Dubh rivals Cormac Fitzgeoffrey for the title of “one of the most sombre characters I have yet attempted.” Both are darkly embittered outcasts.
Before reading this I was going to try offering a perspective on the story structure and plot dynamics etc, such as I understand them. Now that all seems like nothing but dry kindling before the flame of Turlogh’s driving fury.
#
Thanks for your input Jason, and thanks for starting this SotM.
Regarding Moira, her ultimate decision was ironic, tragic, and poignant I thought.
Historically of course the viking reavers did carry away more than a few Irish clan princesses. One of those was Melcora/Melcorka, who was bought as a slave by Hoskuld Dala Kolson, a notable Icelander, by whom she became the mother of Olaf the Peacock. That’s described in the Laxdaela saga.
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Post by Von K on Jul 3, 2017 14:54:18 GMT -5
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Post by thedarkman on Jul 5, 2017 21:33:53 GMT -5
Starting this tonight. I've read this tale at least once, several years ago, so it's due for a re-read anyway. I blasted through a mountain of REH tales over a space of two years as I accumulated the Del Rey's, so it's nice to go back and read this stuff at a more leisurely pace.
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