The Decline of the American Comic Industry

[kemp]

I still like some of the titles from DC and Marvel, I mean, I have been reading the current Flashpoint Beyond series, finished the Maestro: World War M which was a fun read, but other stuff from Marvel/DC seems too woke or juvenile, or a bit of both.

I tried getting back into the Avengers and X Men series, but it felt disjointed and wierd as hell, could not relate to the characters or what was happening in the pages. 

Maybe I am just getting a little older and interests slightly alter, but can't be just that since I still like much of the material produced years ago. I think DC and Marvel comic sales have largely gone to shit by all accounts, many others must feel the same way. 

Maybe this is a great time for new publishers. 

'Non-woke' comic book pulls in $3.3 million: 'We're inspiring people with classic heroism'

Aug. 04, 2022 - 4:41 - Rippaverse Comics founder Eric July and comic book artist Gabe Eltaeb discuss the success of their 'non-woke' comic book ISOM #1 and how 'wokeness' has changed the comic book industry for the worse.'

video.foxnews.com/v/6310415677112#sp=show-clips

[Jason Aiken]

Aug 12, 2022 0:41:15 GMT -5 hun said:

Here's another video by Wes from Thinking Critical looking at the Marvel and DC sales for July:

Nice, I find his analysis pretty spot-on. There's little doubt that DC is in trouble.

I personally think it all starts when they ousted Paul Levitz for Diane Nelson, Dan Didio, Jim Lee (who is an awesome artist) and Geoff Johns (who is a great writer) to run the company.

DC under Levitz was amazing towards the end. It was all corporate BS ousting him with the suits trying to get the properties ready for Hollywood.... look how well that turned out .

If I were running DC comics I'd only publish 13 monthly comic books:

Batman, Detective Comics, Legends of the Dark Knight, Action Comics, Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Green Lantern Corps, Justice League of America, Justice Society of America, Legion of Super-Heroes, and DC Comics Presents.

Then start building back the line topping out at 20 titles that you can rotate in and out as needed. The only titles that deserve ongoing series are those listed above IMHO.

[boot]

And Aquaman, too! I like Aquaman!

[Jason Aiken]

Aug 12, 2022 16:11:11 GMT -5 boot said:

And Aquaman, too! I like Aquaman!

Sorry, I like Arthur, too but he's not deserving of his own ongoing title. It's been tried for decades, the interest just isn't there.

[Deleted]

I can't see DC reducing their monthly comics too drastically. They'll eventually realign their wage structure according to the sales of creators, if they have not done already. 

[Jason Aiken]

Aug 13, 2022 4:32:10 GMT -5 hun said:

I can't see DC reducing their monthly comics too drastically. They'll eventually realign their wage structure according to the sales of creators, if they have not done already. 

The audience is not there for monthly comics anymore, though. There is very little reason to pay to produce 40 titles a month when no audience is there.

Now, if you were to tell me that they would put out 30 titles and label them all "Classics" and fill them with reprint material, I could see that. But there is no sense in sinking anymore money into unsellable products at this point.

Years ago YaBoiZak or Ethan Van Sciver (I can't remember which) once predicted that DC would only be putting out Black Label books and reprints.... I don't think that will happen but stranger things have come true.

Given how the younger people are more conditioned to read manga and now korean webtoons than American comics, something needs to be done.

[crimsonblade]

There’s too many characters with multiple titles of their own, who guest in other titles, and spin off characters with their own books. DC and Marvel probably only need to publish 20 monthly books each, with maybe 4 or 5 additional limited series. Do that and sales will go back up.

[Deleted]

If Marvel and DC cut back to around 20 books each month they will lose money. The other books may not sell well but they still make a tidy sum at the end of the year. Why should they lose that money? The same goes for the comic shops they need to sell more comics - not just the bestsellers. And if a book does not make a profit it'll be cancelled. 

[Von K]

I think that monthly comics can still be profitable if readers know they are going to get a full solid satisfying yarn each month, instead of the modern trend of one yarn strung out by cliffhangers over six to twelve issues. This modern serial kind of narrative works much better when you have all the issues at your fingertips say in the collections or graphic novel versions, which is why those formats are more popular imho. A bit like the modern trend of binge watching a whole season of a TV show.

One yarn a month means that you get the full yarn, and if you don't like it one month then the next is different. Cliffhangers work fine in say a TV show format before the advertising break, but not where you have to wait a week for the resolution, like the old cheesy way they used to do it back when the entertainment industry was still learning the ropes.

[Deleted]

Aug 14, 2022 15:55:56 GMT -5 Von K said:

I think that monthly comics can still be profitable if readers know they are going to get a full solid satisfying yarn each month, instead of the modern trend of one yarn strung out by cliffhangers over six to twelve issues. This modern serial kind of narrative works much better when you have all the issues at your fingertips say in the collections or graphic novel versions, which is why those formats are more popular imho. A bit like the modern trend of binge watching a whole season of a TV show.

One yarn a month means that you get the full yarn, and if you don't like it one month then the next is different. Cliffhangers work fine in say a TV show format before the advertising break, but not where you have to wait a week for the resolution, like the old cheesy way they used to do it back when the entertainment industry was still learning the ropes.

This isn't a new thing though.  I remember back in the 90s you would pick up say x-men 50 and it would be continued in spiderman 235.  That story would end, but then Spiderman's story would continue in Punisher 228 and so on and so on.

It was rare to ever get more than 1 or 2 issues without it asking you to buy another comic to continue.  I've never though monthly comics were good because of that and it looks like the masses have finally had enough of it and the endless soap opera to be continued stories like you mentioned.

[boot]

I just read Charles Seoul's Daredevil omnibus, and yes, those original single issues are a tad dated. But, that was a hell of a run. I would have been addicted to that book had I purchased it over the five years it was published. One exciting story after another.

I don't buy single issues. I like the trades and the omnibuses. But, there's something to be said for an episodic story, told in single issues, with forced time between them. Just like episodic TV, where one episode comes out, and you have to wait a week for the next vs. the entire season being available on day one--you can bing it all at once.

There's something about the forced wait that allows a good story to season. It's like it is marinating in the juices of your speculation about what will happen next. Like that old TV commercial Heinz Ketchup, "Anticipation, it's making me wait."

[Von K]

Your use of food metaphors and anticipation reminds me of a couple of things. one of the key gifts of a good writer is the ability to raise interesting (or even compelling) questions and build anticipation/tension before revealing the answer. It's a key component of Set Up, Build Up, Pay Off. Reacher author Lee Child described it as like when a host makes guests wait before serving their food as the best way to build a healthy appetite for it, and thus also increase their subsequent appreciation for it.

Can't remember if it was Mickey Spillane or Raymond Chandler who said that how good the beginning of your yarn is determines if a reader will read it, and how good the middle as to whether the reader will stick with it, but its how good the end of the yarn is that determines if the reader will want to try the next one.

As a culture we seem to be slowly loosing the ability to wait. A while back I binge watched a number of great multi season TV series, but the notion of having to wait week to week over a number of years for the narrative to unfold as the original viewers did seems almost intolerable to me now.

And those older episodes which had to grab viewer attention rapidly and which were structured around advertising breaks over a specific run time seem superior in craftsmanship to me now than some of the rambling episodes written for modern streaming platforms that I've encountered.

I prefer long deep serialised narratives with long arcs in general but it may still be the case that episodic yarns will always be more commercial because new viewers/readers can jump in at any point without knowing the previous storyline.

Episodic vs serialised - an old marketing conundrum. There's a big market for both but I believe that the episodic always used to be the more commercially successful format.

[Von K]

Aug 14, 2022 19:55:19 GMT -5 @mbern45 said:

Aug 14, 2022 15:55:56 GMT -5 Von K said:

I think that monthly comics can still be profitable if readers know they are going to get a full solid satisfying yarn each month, instead of the modern trend of one yarn strung out by cliffhangers over six to twelve issues. This modern serial kind of narrative works much better when you have all the issues at your fingertips say in the collections or graphic novel versions, which is why those formats are more popular imho. A bit like the modern trend of binge watching a whole season of a TV show.

One yarn a month means that you get the full yarn, and if you don't like it one month then the next is different. Cliffhangers work fine in say a TV show format before the advertising break, but not where you have to wait a week for the resolution, like the old cheesy way they used to do it back when the entertainment industry was still learning the ropes.

This isn't a new thing though.  I remember back in the 90s you would pick up say x-men 50 and it would be continued in spiderman 235.  That story would end, but then Spiderman's story would continue in Punisher 228 and so on and so on.

It was rare to ever get more than 1 or 2 issues without it asking you to buy another comic to continue.  I've never though monthly comics were good because of that and it looks like the masses have finally had enough of it and the endless soap opera to be continued stories like you mentioned.

Yeah I really like serials when they are well done and don't overstay their welcome, but long running soap opera style formats, including their comicbook equivalents, can easily end up getting strung out or overbaked. It's relatively rare to find creatives who are inventive enough to sustain long serial runs (and spin offs) beyond their core story arcs. 

Longer runs in an episodic format are easier to sustain imho. Maybe the runs that use a mixture of both styles get the best of both worlds?

[johnnypt]

Remember the days when Roger Stern & John Byrne left Captain America because they couldn’t do a THREE issue Red Skull story! Seems like today they’d be hard pressed to keep it to JUST three.

[Von K]

Aug 16, 2022 7:22:35 GMT -5 johnnypt said:

Remember the days when Roger Stern & John Byrne left Captain America because they couldn’t do a THREE issue Red Skull story! Seems like today they’d be hard pressed to keep it to JUST three.

I've got a hunch they packed in a whole lot more story per issue back in those days, smaller panels, more panels and more text, though I've never seen an objective comparison.