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Post by lordyam on Feb 8, 2018 16:16:12 GMT -5
Good points so far and I see that, elsewhere, the "racism" issue is already being raised. Eg Conan calls someone a "black dog" in SIZ. Though, in another tale he himself is called a "white dog". Seems to me REH was more about cultures clashing and civilisation vs barbarism than some kind of white supremacist race trip. Treat everyone equally good and equally bad. After all, Conan is a thief, a murderer and a plunderer, as Char-vell says. I also think he should seek anger management for his berserk rages. As an aside, I wonder how people envisage any kind of S&S story without any form of conflict being involved? Differences breed conflict, at least in the world of myth and legend. Different family, different tribe, different country, different species. I've even seen people lately complaining about racism towards Deep Ones... It's not just the conflict that shit's inevitable. But lines like "I wouldn't leave a white woman in the clutches of a black man" or referring to a "devilish hues" for race mixing is kind of a "what the fuck" moment. |
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Post by johnnypt on Feb 8, 2018 16:32:48 GMT -5
Good points so far and I see that, elsewhere, the "racism" issue is already being raised. Eg Conan calls someone a "black dog" in SIZ. Though, in another tale he himself is called a "white dog". Seems to me REH was more about cultures clashing and civilisation vs barbarism than some kind of white supremacist race trip. Treat everyone equally good and equally bad. After all, Conan is a thief, a murderer and a plunderer, as Char-vell says. I also think he should seek anger management for his berserk rages. As an aside, I wonder how people envisage any kind of S&S story without any form of conflict being involved? Differences breed conflict, at least in the world of myth and legend. Different family, different tribe, different country, different species. I've even seen people lately complaining about racism towards Deep Ones... It's not just the conflict that shit's inevitable. But lines like "I wouldn't leave a white woman in the clutches of a black man" or referring to a "devilish hues" for race mixing is kind of a "what the fuck" moment.
I think we can safely assume those lines will NOT be in the show! Like if you follow ERB's description of Tarzan killing of Kulonga explicitly, you'd show him effectively being lynched! Legend of Tarzan decided to go another route that worked just as well.
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Post by KiramidHead on Feb 8, 2018 16:34:22 GMT -5
I think the racism issues could be toned down without hurting the stories. The specific language could be rewritten, and "dog" is as effective an insult as "black dog". Most of the more overt racism is in the prose, not the dialogue. If there is a prominent black character, they could take the extra time afforded a series to give them a bit more development. Say, give names and personalities to some members of Belit's crew, etc. And they can always just skip Vale of Lost Women. It's not exactly good enough to absolutely require adaptation.
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Post by johnnypt on Feb 8, 2018 16:42:34 GMT -5
I think the racism issues could be toned down without hurting the stories. The specific language could be rewritten, and "dog" is as effective an insult as "black dog". Most of the more overt racism is in the prose, not the dialogue. If there is a prominent black character, they could take the extra time afforded a series to give them a bit more development. Say, give names and personalities to some members of Belit's crew, etc. And they can always just skip Vale of Lost Women. It's not exactly good enough to absolutely require adaptation.
Or take it as challenge: do Vale of Lost Women and NOT offend anyone!
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Post by Char-Vell on Feb 8, 2018 16:47:37 GMT -5
All I want is an adaption of Beyond the Black River that doesn't piss me off.
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Post by lordyam on Feb 8, 2018 16:48:58 GMT -5
I think the racism issues could be toned down without hurting the stories. The specific language could be rewritten, and "dog" is as effective an insult as "black dog". Most of the more overt racism is in the prose, not the dialogue. If there is a prominent black character, they could take the extra time afforded a series to give them a bit more development. Say, give names and personalities to some members of Belit's crew, etc. And they can always just skip Vale of Lost Women. It's not exactly good enough to absolutely require adaptation. Most likely. I provided some examples (in both Marvel and DH the black characters are more fleshed out and in the Avenger storyline there's an interracial couple that's sympathetic |
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Post by darthgall on Feb 8, 2018 21:28:59 GMT -5
I think the overt racism can easily be cut or toned down and rolled into a sophisticated storyline. Assuming the series would start with a younger Conan, he's uneducated about the world and how people act, speak and think differently. Part of the enjoyment of the show would be watching Conan figure this out and mature. Conan's "college experience" was working as a thief in Shadizarg, so it would be easy to see those storylines incorporating having some prejudices, overcoming them, figuring out women, etc., all while stealing stuff at night.
Of course, there will be a few voices here and there talking about "the racist source material" but most audiences, especially of streaming services, seem willing to give some things a chance to be good or bad on their own merits.
Other random, unconnected thoughts:
Jason Momoa was awesome as Conan, but I think he's already too old (at least for the longevity this series will have in my dreams) to start with a properly young Conan.
I thought Kurt Busiek did a great job of threading the younger conan stories together, adding some connective tissue to make short stories part of a larger, ongoing saga. It proved to me that you can take great short stories and connect them, so they could be enjoyed in isolation as a self-contained story, but with more meaning to someone who was following the whole thing. Series would probably follow that model (that's definitely a GoT influence).
One thing I hope they DON'T take from GoT: that everyone's so grimy and dirty and dark that they're practically indistinguishable. Yes, some dirt and threat of real injury is good, but I'm hoping Hyborian Cultures come across as more colorful and vibrant than they do in GoT (LoTR did this part right I think... colorful and unique without being video game exaggerated; still practical).
Finally... how will the new pastiches fit in to all this? Will there be any crossover at all? I suspect at some point they'll try and take one of the (hopefully really good) pastiche novels (assuming they're novels) and do a Amazon/Marvel Comics crossover event...
My fondest hope would be see REH Conan stories accurate (I think the LoTR movies were very accurate, I'd call it 90% accurate, and that's definitely good enough for me) on the screen.
My 2nd fondest hope would be to see some of the awesome comic storylines and awesome pastiche (Emerald Lotus springs to mind) on teh screen as well.
Mick.
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mojo
Wanderer
Posts: 9 
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Post by mojo on Feb 8, 2018 23:58:31 GMT -5
I may be off base but it seems logical that the denizens of the Hyborian Age would be wildly racist, mysogynistic, and homophobic to modern, western eyes. Why not show that and use it to reflect on our own attitudes? Yes, absolutely. Man, that would be a edgy, unpopular, direction to some, but it would also correspond with this new wave of hate speech and white supremacy. A very timely theme. |
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Post by lordyam on Feb 9, 2018 0:40:24 GMT -5
Some of the DH pastiches were quite good (I liked the Hanumar Road Arc, the Nestor Arc, and the Free Companions Arc.) The second half may have gone downhill and recovered too late but the first half will always be classic
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Post by BlackHeart on Feb 9, 2018 4:39:41 GMT -5
Why western world tryes to turn its gaze of that kind of stuff? Dont get me wrong, Im no racist, I dont judge people of their customs or belifs, but all that political corection, anti racism crusade, diferent religion tolerancy and everything that goes with it is pointles. Since the begining, people hated each other, did some grusome things in name of their religion and had racial isues. Nothing will ever put an end to this... Till human race ends one day. And this is such a hypocrisy in modern movie/tv world that it becomes great pain in the ass. We have Hyborian age, that was as it was (law writes a stronger arm), and scared bunch of producent wants to put some modern day norms and belifs in it because its "not politicaly corect"? Cry me a river 🙁 They should reprisent it as much as real as it is posible. And, if they are creative, they can show how that mindles racial/religious hearted is dark and bad thing. What happend to the autenticity?
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Post by Aryeh on Feb 9, 2018 8:14:10 GMT -5
Robert E. Howard was not a political writer -- that he was prone to racism and antisemitism, shows that politics is his weakest spot. And when one adapts some author's work, one selects that what is worth keeping, while bypassing the rest.
What kept Marvel's comic book serial going for years was not that it relied on Howard's politics, but instead, it was his sense of the fantastic. Conan is basically The Thief of Baghdad (especially the 1940 version), but with tits, ale drinking, sword fighting and cosmic horror (borrowed from Lovecraft). That is Howard's strongest side. And, that is also something we did not see on screen -- while Milius film is a master piece, and it is a monument to Howard in many ways (numerous stories and motifs merged into one epic film), it lacks something when it comes to its fantastic dimension (I am sure this lack was first and foremost there because of the budget, then, because there was no CGI back then). Shiny cities with towers, deep jungles with prehistoric remains, nightmarish monsters -- Marvel had that while Milius's film focused on something else. Perhaps there is some third angle that one can select from Howard's writings and then build upon it, but if it isn't what Milius has done already, or, if it isn't the Marvel approach, it certainly isn't Howard's politics.
Regarding racism in Conan world, or sexism -- I hope that gets obliterated altogether in favor of adventure, of spectacular fantastic sights, and of the nightmarish psychological horror.
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Post by buxom9sorceress on Feb 9, 2018 21:25:27 GMT -5
So which is your fave reh tale, and how would you like them to film it?  any suggestions to help the director + that screenplay? How can they make it more exciting to entertain us modern viewers more? [ we are used to slick multiple interweaved storylines over several episode arcs, and plenty different characters to follow, - in most of the best series, today.] can the very old reh tales /plots compete with the slick modern series we are used to? surely there will have to be lots of alterations and additional characters: more folks for conan to converse with, and play with? [ more females? more strong females?] + more titilations: bellydancers, erotic dancers with tits out and skimpy thong-things? + more scenes with conan having a fun 'roll in the hay', and with various busty beauties addicted to his raw strength great stamina and animal magnetism? |
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Post by anaximander on Feb 9, 2018 22:49:02 GMT -5
Some people here have suggested that the new Conan show from Amazon reflect their own modern liberal sensibilities and taboos, which would mandate rewriting Conan into something that doesn't offend them, that addresses their all- important social justice agenda. However, people like me won't tune in to see Conan the Californian, and much like the 2011 film, it would carry the stigma of not being supported by the fans themselves. Robert E. Howard wasn't writing thinly veiled allegories about how racism, sexism, or any other "isms" or "phobias" are bad. A Conan TV show is not the opportunity for a teachable moment, diversity is not Conan's strength, and the arc of the Hyborian Age doesn't bend towards justice. I want to see a faithful adaptation of Conan without modern nonsense thrown in.
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Post by lordyam on Feb 10, 2018 1:12:46 GMT -5
Some people here have suggested that the new Conan show from Amazon reflect their own modern liberal sensibilities and taboos, which would mandate rewriting Conan into something that doesn't offend them, that addresses their all- important social justice agenda. However, people like me won't tune in to see Conan the Californian, and much like the 2011 film, it would carry the stigma of not being supported by the fans themselves. Robert E. Howard wasn't writing thinly veiled allegories about how racism, sexism, or any other "isms" or "phobias" are bad. A Conan TV show is not the opportunity for a teachable moment, diversity is not Conan's strength, and the arc of the Hyborian Age doesn't bend towards justice. I want to see a faithful adaptation of Conan without modern nonsense thrown in. Not even remotely what people are suggesting. AS DH showed you can have non white characters who are sympathetic and likable and still have the core of the character (the action magic and weirdness). You can keep the core of that while excising the unpleasant stuff; DH and Marvel did it and both were really good for the most part. One of the best DH Issues Sorrows of Akivasha made her sympathetic while still having her as an evil monster (The sympathy comes from the fact that she's realized how hollow immortality is and to a degree regrets her decision; it's a small bit of humanity within the monster.) Hell Janissa had the potential to show how a woman tried to escape slavery and succeeded only to find that she'd trade one master for an even worse one and she doesn't even realize it. |
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Post by moonlightshadow on Feb 10, 2018 6:38:00 GMT -5
Well, if they make a social justice warrior out of Conan, with a black sidekick and an asian girlfriend (or vice versa) and make him bi-sexual for no reason than proving how liberal the writers and producers are (like they did with Captain Flint in "Black Sails") I won't pay a cent for that crap.
OTOH there are plenty of action/adventure series on TV that are not catering to the leftist mainstream, stuff like "Vikings" and "Spartacus: Blood and Sand" so let's not give up hope yet.
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