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Post by johnnypt on Feb 18, 2023 7:17:43 GMT -5
The pirate line in IS is the only hint I can find of something that would place the story specifically after another (Queen) other than his not liking the king of Koth, which I think was the springboard from Black Colossus to here.
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Post by Reaver on Feb 18, 2023 13:05:28 GMT -5
We have take clues where we can find them! Even then the meaning is not always straightforward. The story lead-ins often provide information about what Conan has been up to beforehand, and it's a pity we don't have Howard stories filling them in. Occasionally the story ending gives a clue as to what Conan will do next with his lady, but like the Bond movies there usually isn't a clear segueway to the next yarn. : ) Will be good to see what you make of Tamar/Tarantia in the king sequence tales. Perhaps like in the Trojan War, the city had alternate names, as in Troy/Ilium, or a region/city name, as in Lacedaemon/Sparta and Latium/Rome.
Iron Shadows sees Conan with a backstory as a Free Companion of the Kozaki, land-based steppe raiders of the western lands of the Vilayet Sea. The may be Conan's early acquaintance with a band of Kozaks, whom he comes to lead later in A Witch Shall Be Born. In the backdrop to Iron Shadows, it seems Conan was a member but not the chieftain of these rogues. In any case Iron Shadows definitely comes after Queen.
Sojourn in the East: Iron Shadows in the Moon People of the Black Circle (Drums of Tombalku) Shadows in Zamboula/ A Witch Shall Be Born The Devil in Iron
This arc of the career takes Conan far east and south of the Hyborian regions. From steppe raider to pirate leader in Iron Shadows, Conan raids the Vilyet sea to singe King Yidiz's pantaloons, but eventually departs this roving life for Vendhya and Himelian hill tribes of the Black Circle. People of the Black Circle has in its background the geopolitical machinations of King Yezdigerd of Turan. The non-Howard pastiches write him up a a young successor to Yildiz, but I believe this is misinvented. Inded the Turanian king in the background of the Black Circle is an experienced long-term schemer and regional hegemon. Therefore the Yidiz-Yezdigerd confusion is a red herring, he is one ruler as written by Howard, looming over the wars and adventures of the east.
On his way back from distant Vendhya and Afghulistan, Conan wanders through Zamboula- warned about the Inn by a Zuagir acquaintance of his raider days before Iron Shadows- and fights his strongest opponent, the strangler Baal-Pteor. But leadership comes naturally to him now, and he goes on to lead the guard of Khauran, survives crucifixion and overthrows Olgerd Vladislav to become chieftain of the kozaki; they follow "because I am a barbarian too." This raiding infuriates Turan and Yezdigerd, "mightiest monarch in the world", into attempting to trap Conan, leader of the kozaki, on the island of Xapur in "The Devil in Iron". Surviving this however, Conan revisits the thought he had on Xapur, to "quit the armed camps and the steppes and put a thousand miles between him and the blue, mysterious East.." The end of Conan's Sojourn in the East sees him return one last time to Cimmeria, before he sets off on his final adventures through the West and South that will lead him to the kingship of Aquilonia.
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Post by johnnypt on Feb 18, 2023 13:40:06 GMT -5
Zamboula should definitely be after Witch since there’d been no mention of the Zuagirs until then. People needs to be the end of this cycle since it’s the culmination of his rise in the East. I think he even mentions he was a hetman, which he wasn’t until Devil.
I remember I had to go back and rework something since it says Conan was penniless when he started his rise to leadership in the East. All these little strings you have to watch out for!
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Post by Reaver on Feb 18, 2023 14:29:27 GMT -5
The relative placement of Witch, Black Circle and Zamboula is about the most vexed issue in the middle chronology, demanding both of the evidence and of an assessment of what seems right in the story cycle. With all of Conan's eastern adventures among Free Companions, Kozaks, Zuagirs, Hykanians, Afghulis and Turanians, there are indeed many strings and threads to follow, perhaps inconclusively. In Zamboula, a Zuagir warns Conan about the inn of Aram Baksh, because Conan has been among the Zuagirs; though it's not clear not as their chieftain. So Conan's knowledge of the Zuagirs could have been from earlier adventures such as before Iron Shadows or in Hand of Nergal. Likewise in Black Circle when he is mentioned as a hetman of the kozaki, this seems to be a unit leader, not the overall chieftain role had in Devil in Iron. Part of placing Zamboula before Witch is the circumstances of Conan's arrival in town - penniless and exhausted. The character of Conan at this stage is different from the leader in Witch who wages the Khauran insurgency, plans and executes strategy to retake the realm, win the battles and seize the chieftainship. Indeed, "Witch", together with "Black Circle", show Conan at his most strategic and statecraft-minded, showing that these are mature episodes on his way to the throne. There's also his crucifixion in Witch- it seems difficult even for Conan coming from that to triumphing over his strongest foe, Baal-Pteor, by hand in a strangling contest. But it is possible of course to see the sequence either way.
This Eastern grouping leaves one last sizable set of Conan's later adventures to sort out before the cycle of three king stories, which I refer to as his Return to the West/Road of Kings.
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Post by johnnypt on Feb 18, 2023 17:25:51 GMT -5
My tendency is to lean towards placing stories relative to where things are first mentioned. Otherwise you can just make up any order. That’s why Zamboula needs to follow Witch at some point because Zuagirs had never been mentioned before that. It’s the reason I couldn’t agree with Amra’s placement of Jewels of Gwahlur before Pool of the Black One since the Barachan Isles hadn’t been mentioned before that story. It’s also the crux of the incorrect placement of Devil In Iron before Slithering Shadow. Had Farnsworth not changed the title, you’d think Miller or Clark would’ve found the Xuthal reference.
I would view Conan’s role in Black Circle as superior to his position in Devil, relative to the tribes or groups he was head of.
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Post by Reaver on Feb 18, 2023 22:49:42 GMT -5
Definitely a parsimonious solution, requiring the simplest explanation from available references, should be preferred. These Eastern tales may be seen as a group in which the particular order is debatable after Iron Shadows. His seafaring with the Red Brotherhood would give Conan knowledge of the path to Vendhya from its southeast shore, so I see him spending time with the fractious Afghuli tribes there in Black Circle before returning west- steering clear of Turan and going through Tombalku, then the Khauran/Zamboula/Devil in Iron sequence. Black Circle is the most distant of Conan's recoded adventures; from the time he spends there, he has to get back to the western lands, so I see Tombalku (or Zamboula) as part of his route back to destiny.
There is an interesting subset of study of the various raider groups bedeviling the Vilayet Sea region and the Empire of Turan. "Kozaks" seems to be a general term referring to raiders of various types as well as to some specific warbands. One band of them were known as the Free Companions- ex mercenaries who trickled in from the west before their slaughter. The Kozaki Conan leads at the time of Devil in Iron rove over the land and coasts of the southern Vilayet. The Zuagirs are specifically western desert land raiders, active in the wastes between Turan, Khauran, and Hyborian and Shemitish lands. The Red Brotherhood are the pirates of the Vilayet. (The word Vilayet, apparently chosen by Howard from an atlas for its exotic orientalist sound, simply means a "province" of Ottoman Turkey.)
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Post by johnnypt on Feb 19, 2023 6:12:37 GMT -5
It’s also interesting there’s a Red Brotherhood both inland and on the Western Sea. Seems like it’s a general collective term for a subset of outlaws.
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Post by Reaver on Feb 20, 2023 0:08:35 GMT -5
From the knots of Conan's middle career, I think it's possible to be a bit more confident in his later adventures up to the taking of Aquilonia. Again, this later stage is preceded by a return to Cimmeria (as Howard said he did from time to time). This third return I believe to be the last, and the rest of the stories wrap up his adventures across Hyboria to the kingship. These journeys allow Conan a "reset" of his state of development and help delineate periods of his career that occurred over (sometimes large) regions of the Hyborian continent. It's worth considering these journeys home, which must have taken months and adventures of their own, yet were unrecounted (though confirmed) by the Chronicler. It may be that for Conan, these journeys were undertaken in somewhat of a fugue state- in his "gigantic melancholies"- where he proceeded alone or in caravans as unobtrusively as possible, keeping to himself and acting only when the group or a vulnerable companion was in danger. In any case, following his sorcerous and dangerous encounters in the East, Conan puts a thousand miles behind him and returns to Cimmeria- then re-enters the life of a wandering warrior passing through the greatest kingdom of all- Aquilonia.
Return to the West: The Black Stranger Pool of the Black Ones Red Nails Jewels of Gwahlur Vale of Lost Women Beyond the Black River (Wolves Beyond the Border)
The Road of Kings: Phoenix of the Sword The Scarlet Citadel Hour of the Dragon
The Black Stranger begins this final cycle as Conan enters the service of the Aquilonian kingdom as a scout on its longstanding Thunder River frontier. In the tumultuous end of this tale, he resumes life as a pirate captain of the Barachan islands. This leads into directly to his next adventure (leaving unrecounted his pirate days there), as he has abandoned the Barachas and swims to a new ship, the Wastrel, in Pool of the Black One. Taking over this crew, he resumes pirating among the Red Brotherhood (a ubiquitous name across Hyboria for pirates) until he abandons that life pursuing fellow pirate Valeria, in the lead up to Red Nails. Despite surviving together this grimmest of Howard's tales, Conan and Valeria eventually part ways, leaving Conan to wander to Keshan as a mercenary army trainer (until he can attempt to steal the famous Jewels of Gwahlur). At the end of that venture, he tells Muriela they will head south to pass her off as a goddess, so we find Conan in the southern kingdoms (minus Muriela) in the objectionable Vale of Lost Women story. Conan's murderous conduct there, despite his fame as Amra, makes this certainly the last of his adventures in the southern kingdoms.
From the wreckage of these misadventures in the south, Conan then heads back to the great kingdom he already knows well- Aquilonia, taking up service as a scout on the new frontier- Beyond the Black River. The chaos of the loss of Conojohara province, the massacre of the settlers and of much of the frontier army, produce the crisis of the state which propels Conan to leadership of the rebellious army (Wolves Beyond the Border) and triumph in seizure of the crown of Aquilonia.
Some chronologies place Black River before Black Stranger, but close examination reverses this. Conan was not a scout in Black Stranger because of his service in Black River; he was the independent, gifted scout of the new province's governor, operating beyond the Black River frontier, because of the experience he had fighting Picts in the backstory of Black Stranger. The geopolitics of Black Stranger are clearly before Black River; the farthest settlement of Aquilonia's frontiers is referenced several times as the traditional Thunder River border. It is only in the years between Black Stranger and Black River that Aquilonia pushed its frontier there, to its ultimate ruin. Beyond the Black River is thus the final Conan story before he is propelled to the kingship; and it is a result of his actions, and the crisis of Aquilonia following its defeat in Conojohara, that he would become the leader of the rebellion that placed him on the throne.
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Post by johnnypt on Feb 20, 2023 7:51:45 GMT -5
Yeah…can’t go with this one :-). The reason he’s by the Thunder River is because Conajohara has been wiped out and the settlement has been pushed back. Plus you have a wrecked ship to account for three years earlier plus Wolves has Black River at least five years before the Aquilonian civil war. That’s also part of the reason Dale moved Red Nails and Jewels, to give some space between them all.
Interesting Vale placement. He’s in the south so it could work.
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Post by Reaver on Feb 20, 2023 20:17:21 GMT -5
So many pirate stories.. :-) Apart from the Vilayet Sea, Conan has at least three pirate episodes (not all covered by stories) in the Western Ocean- the first of course with Belit, and then at least two with the Red Brotherhood/Baracha pirates. Probably one of the pirate episodes used as a backdrop is unchronicled and fits somewhere in his earlier career. We know at the end of Black Stranger that he returns to the seas, and that he also lost a pirate ship three years before. But there's no mention in Howard that this earlier wreck was the Wastrel that Conan took over in Pool of the Black One- that's only another invention of the dubious pastiche series. Conan comes to Zaporavo's ship in "Pool" by leaving a (probably ambushed) pirate rendezvous, not a shipwreck. With the backstory to Red Nails showing Conan was pursuing Valeria after another pirate venture, there's a reasonable sequence of Black Stranger-Pool-Red Nails.
The case for Black Stranger preceding Beyond the Black River though remains in the text. Besides references to the Thunder River being the farthest Aquilonia has expanded, Conan's missions across the Pictish wilderness are described as the first times anyone had gone beyond Thunder River through the Pictish lands. So the short-lived expansion to the Black River and Conojohara clearly occurs after Conan's first-time scouting of Pictland in Black Stranger. Seeking order among the stories is problematic and assigning years even more so. The unpublished Wolves Beyond the Border fragment simply presents challenges to all the late chronology efforts, as noted; Joe Marek and Dale Ripke's modern efforts are instructive even where one may reassess or disagree with their findings.
In any case of course study of the stories is its own reward, not whether one sequence can be taken as definitive.
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Post by johnnypt on Feb 20, 2023 20:57:04 GMT -5
There’s no mention at all in Howard of which ship is which. The only person who has things like that would be Rippke. DeCamp came up with a whole novel to discuss Conan’s time with the Wastrel. It’s inferred on the original sequence that the Wastrel is the ship mentioned at the beginning of Red Nails, which makes perfect sense using just the published stories. Amra’s idea was along those same lines, they were different ships other than the ones we saw him sail away with at the end of certain stories. That’s not wrong per se but we’re inferring things that definitely aren’t in the text. (My reason for Conan being hailed as a hero in Aquilonia will be a good example of this, it’s totally unsupported by anything in Howard but he left it wide open for people to put their own stories in there).
Also the issue with Black Stranger that early is when he arrives, everyone knows him, but if you have Pool come later, one of the most feared pirates has no idea the guy on his ship is the subject of a whole series of legends? Then you’d have Conan working for the Aquilonians, getting captured by the Picts, then a few years later go back and do the same thing and have it turn out worse? It happened once with that/those rebel prince(s) of Koth, would he be willing do that again? :-)
Reading Rick Lai’s El Borak piece in the other thread and the research I’ve been doing for the eventual HEU podcast, REH tied things in a VERY tight bow! If there’s a thread to another story it’s there for a reason. He never got rid of things, the smallest idea works its way back in (latest one I found is the twin kings of Tombalku turn up in Zembabwei in Jewels of Gwahlur) l. It’s not just Conan, it’s Kull, El Borak, Bran Mac Morn, Turlough O’Brien, one thing leads to the other. There’s a little room to play around, but things go in that general direction. To quote a famous NJ resident, when you come to the fork in the road, take it! :-)
Like I’ve mentioned, with what Miller and Clark had to use, they basically got it right with a tweak or two.
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Post by Reaver on Feb 21, 2023 10:38:03 GMT -5
Visiting a friend in upstate NY this year, I was surprised to go through Canajoharie and immediately thought of a possible influence on Howard's Beyond the Black River, a frontier massacre story often seen as a Hyborian setting for an American West/early colonial frontier tale. Upstate New York was very much a conflict frontier up through the War of Independence, so it's possible Howard in his readings of early American history came across the name and adapted it for Conojahara province by the Black River. Maybe this is already covered by Howard scholars. In any case here is a write-up of the region's frontier history from the Montgomery County, NY website: "During the 18th century, the Mohawk Valley was a frontier of great political, military and economic importance. The only natural east-west passage through the Appalachian Mountains was in what is now Canajoharie, providing a corridor to the Great Lakes for the British and conversely, a path for the French from New France to the heart of British America." www.visitmontgomerycountyny.com/history/french-indian-war/
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Post by johnnypt on Feb 21, 2023 11:11:50 GMT -5
Visiting a friend in upstate NY this year, I was surprised to go through Canajoharie and immediately thought of a possible influence on Howard's Beyond the Black River, a frontier massacre story often seen as a Hyborian setting for an American West/early colonial frontier tale. Upstate New York was very much a conflict frontier up through the War of Independence, so it's possible Howard in his readings of early American history came across the name and adapted it for Conojahara province by the Black River. Maybe this is already covered by Howard scholars. In any case here is a write-up of the region's frontier history from the Montgomery County, NY website: "During the 18th century, the Mohawk Valley was a frontier of great political, military and economic importance. The only natural east-west passage through the Appalachian Mountains was in what is now Canajoharie, providing a corridor to the Great Lakes for the British and conversely, a path for the French from New France to the heart of British America." www.visitmontgomerycountyny.com/history/french-indian-war/This is exactly the basis for the stories. Robert W Chambers (of King in Yellow Fame) had written a number of Revolutionary War era tales set in upstate New York, including one that mentioned the province. These were the ones that were the most direct influence on Wolves, Black River, and Black Stranger. We took a trip to Lake George a few years back and stayed practically on the grounds of the reconstructed Fort William Henry, which is where Last of the Mohicans took place in part. Very nice era, we took a trip up one of the mountains just to get a quick view of the area, need to head back some day. Another massacre in that era in the general area that may have been an influence was the Wyoming Valley massacre in Pennsylvania near what is now Wilkes Barre. One of the victims, Frances Slocum, has a park named after her. Nice swimming pool.
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Post by Reaver on Feb 21, 2023 20:44:19 GMT -5
Not strictly in the chronology but still recommended is the curious Howard story featuring one Conan from Dark Ages Hibernia, in "The People of the Dark". People of the Dark is a time-travel story about a jealous 20th century American who falls in a cave and awakes knowing he is Conan of the reavers, a swordsman from Ireland on the Welsh coast pursuing a Briton-Welsh girl (somewhat like Frost Giant's Daughter). This proto-Conan has the Cimmerian's look, violence, and outlook, but is placed by Howard in the murky Dark Ages of known history. While the story does not build Conan's Hyborian career, its unique first-person narration by Conan delivers insight into the character. This prototype of the Cimmerian with his sword, grim black-haired face and massive build could easily be placed as Conan of the Hyborian Age. What to make of this story? It is not a fragment, as it is a complete and published story (1932). It is not a pastiche, as it is actually by Robert E. Howard. I suppose the best way to regard it is as "apocrypha" - potentially illuminating but non-canonical. The story can be read here: en.wikisource.org/wiki/People_of_the_Dark
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Post by johnnypt on Feb 21, 2023 22:18:44 GMT -5
Not strictly in the chronology but still recommended is the curious Howard story featuring one Conan from Dark Ages Hibernia, in "The People of the Dark". People of the Dark is a time-travel story about a jealous 20th century American who falls in a cave and awakes knowing he is Conan of the reavers, a swordsman from Ireland on the Welsh coast pursuing a Briton-Welsh girl (somewhat like Frost Giant's Daughter). This proto-Conan has the Cimmerian's look, violence, and outlook, but is placed by Howard in the murky Dark Ages of known history. While the story does not build Conan's Hyborian career, its unique first-person narration by Conan delivers insight into the character. This prototype of the Cimmerian with his sword, grim black-haired face and massive build could easily be placed as Conan of the Hyborian Age. What to make of this story? It is not a fragment, as it is a complete and published story (1932). It is not a pastiche, as it is actually by Robert E. Howard. I suppose the best way to regard it is as "apocrypha" - potentially illuminating but non-canonical. The story can be read here: en.wikisource.org/wiki/People_of_the_DarkAs Patrice mentions in Hyborian Genesis, it’s one of the three sources that led to Phoenix: By This Axe I Rule, Cimmeria and People of the Dark. I also consider it as the final story of the Lost Race cycle: Lost Race, Little People, Children of the Night and People of the Dark. Wish it had been included in the Bran Mak Morn volume.
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