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Post by deuce on May 14, 2016 23:27:51 GMT -5
Robert E. Howard quote pertinent to the Hyperboreans from "The Hyborian Age" essay in The Coming of Conan (Del Rey)... Another factor has added to the impetus of Hyborian drift. A tribe of that race has discovered the use of stone in building, and the first Hyborian kingdom has come into being – the rude and barbaric kingdom of Hyperborea, which had its beginning in a crude fortress of boulders heaped to repel tribal attack. The people of this tribe soon abandoned their horse-hide tents for stone houses, crudely but mightily built, and thus protected, they grew strong. There are few more dramatic events in history than the rise of the rude, fierce kingdom of Hyperborea, whose people turned abruptly from their nomadic life to rear dwellings of naked stone, surrounded by cyclopean walls – a race scarcely emerged from the polished stone age, who had by a freak of chance, learned the first rude principles of architecture. (p354)This quote is very important in situating the Hyperboreans/Hyborians conceptually and culturally. To Robert E. Howard, "horse-hide tents" was basically a code word for "(early/proto) Indo-European". Here's the wiki about that minor linguistic/tribal grouping: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-EuropeansEssentially, REH only described three peoples as using "horse-hide tents": Early Hyborians Nordheimr (Early/proto) Indo-Europeans Here's the quote from REH's "Brachan the Kelt" fragment: And already we ["Aryans"/Indo-Europeans]* were splitting off in tribes that wandered west and south in century-long hegiras. So the steppes with their rolling expanses of waving grass and the horse-hide tents along the shores of the inland [Caspian] sea remain but as dim memories in my mind.So, Howard had his early Indo-Europeans [which he always called "Aryans"] * living in "horse-hide tents". The same went for his Hyborian Age Nordheimr, who were ancestors (along with the Cimmerians) of the "Aryans" according to the "Hyborian Age" essay. *Note: If you experience butthurt when Howard refers to Indo-Europeans as "Aryans", this was in 1932. The term was widely used in that way all over the Anglophone world at that time by linguists, historians and anthropologists. Later generations have decided to give the Nazis the posthumous power to taint that well, despite the fact that the term "communist" doesn't seem to mean "over 70 million dead in the 20th century". BTW, Mahatma Mohondas Gandhi used the term "Aryan blood" several times. He wasn't referring to just Indian/Hindu "blood", or even the cultural links between the Indo-Iranian peoples. He was referring to the genetic/cultural ties between the Indo-European peoples of Asia and those of Europe. www.sikhsundesh.net/gandhi.htmIf REH was a bastard, so was Gandhi. Back on point, we see the early Hybori/Hyperboreans living as nomads in horse-hide tents. This leads into what cultural model Howard was using for for his Hyborians/Hyperboreans. Obviously, that would be his conception of the early "Aryans". When REH writes about "Shemite Zuagirs" nobody seems to have a problem recognizing the model is Arabic Bedouin. The same goes for Hindi Indians and "Vendhyans". When one encounters actual Bedouin in Howard's historical tales, the match is 90+%. The same goes for Hybori/Hyperboreans. Howard describes them in every way as similar to his later "Aryans"/Indo-Europeans". He takes his Hyborians ("pseudo-Indo-Europeans") through similar wanderings and travails. They migrate south, east and west. They overthrow the former potentates of the "Middle East" and establish their strongest kingdoms in what would be "Europe". An empire arises (Acheron) that parallels Rome, subjugating the older Hyborian kingdoms. Hyborian barbarians cast it down. They create their own kingdoms. They civilize and begin to expand (like the early Renaissance kingdoms) when an Eastern warlord (analogous to Tamerlane or Suleiman) destroys them. Robert E. Howard had to destroy his Hyborians (including Hyperboreans) to make way for his Indo-Europeans.  |
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Post by deuce on May 15, 2016 1:09:46 GMT -5
From "The Hyborian Age" essay in The Coming of Conan (Del Rey)... Another factor has added to the impetus of Hyborian drift. A tribe of that race has discovered the use of stone in building, and the first Hyborian kingdom has come into being – the rude and barbaric kingdom of Hyperborea, which had its beginning in a crude fortress of boulders heaped to repel tribal attack. The people of this tribe soon abandoned their horse-hide tents for stone houses, crudely but mightily built, and thus protected, they grew strong. There are few more dramatic events in history than the rise of the rude, fierce kingdom of Hyperborea, whose people turned abruptly from their nomadic life to rear dwellings of naked stone, surrounded by cyclopean walls – a race scarcely emerged from the polished stone age, who had by a freak of chance, learned the first rude principles of architecture. (p354)Referring back to my previous post, we're looking at the next stage of Indo-European/"Aryan" cultural developement (beyond nomadic "horse-hide tents") as REH conceptualized it. I've seen some crazy suggestions for "parallels" with that first Hyperborean kingdom. The Minoan civilization on Crete, Great Zimbabwe, etc... Howard saw the Hyborians (including the Hyperboreans) as "pseudo-Indo-Europeans". A wiki link to Indo-Europeans: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-EuropeansGuess what? We have concrete evidence of "cyclopean walls/fortresses" in the general/"Russian" area (sorry, nothing in Finland) from the Proto-Indo-European period. That would be the Bronze Age era in far eastern Europe on the Pontic Steppe right after "the polished stone age" (REH code for "Neolithic"). First off, the term "cyclopean" as REH (and archaeologists in the 1930s) used it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclopean_masonryAs will be shown in the links below, "cyclopean" (clear back in 1830) referred to very large stone boulders of irregular size fitted together (without mortar) to form architectural structures. Howard used the term in that exact sense. Check the ballistics on this from 1855: www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/Russia_on_the_Black_Sea_and_Sea_of_Azof_1000205443/243An excerpt... On the summit are the remains of an ancient castle, the walls of which are composed of enormous blocks of stone without cement. Tlie fortifications are in a large semicircle, the diameter wall of which is about seven hundred feet in length, and the thickness of the walls about five feet. "Where the wall can be approached from the land thirteen towers defend it, but on the side of the precipice there are none. In looking at the style of this construction, it is impossible to recognise in it a work of the Byzantine Greeks, or the Genoese, who always used lime and mortar, as may be seen in the ruins of Alouchta, Ourzouf, Soudak, Theodosia, and Balaclava. These ruins are built like those at little Castele, Demir Kapou, and other of the most ancient remains in the Crimea.
They resemble the Cyclopean walls of Kimmericum (Opouk), and the Tumuli of the Gold Mountain near Kertch, and Dubois attributes them to the Tauri, and the Tauro
Scythians. This little fortress has not been inhabited since 1475, that is to say, since the destruction of the Genoese power in the Crimea, but there is no reason to think that it was ever inhabited by the Genoese or the Greeks. There is no trace of temple or other edifice within it, and the only remains of such are to be found immediately on arriving at the top of the mountain (...)These are "ancient remains" in comparison to the Byzantines or medieval Genovese. Links are made to the Scythians and Cimmerians. "Cyclopean walls". From 1833, an acount of "Altyn-Obo" the "Mountain of Gold": books.google.com/books?id=6xlGAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA201&lpg=PA201&dq=cyclopean+finland&source=bl&ots=jnLsKyiqrV&sig=Xqf8yD6sbd75hXZnkLT6BBUVRHM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjR-7T_utrMAhWMpYMKHZcmCfEQ6AEILjAF#v=onepage&q=cyclopean%20finland&f=false It was the tomb of an early Scythian king ( not Mithridates). It had a "cyclopean" wall around it. The interior was also "cyclopean" and resembled the tombs of Mycenaean kings. There are other accounts from the 1800s that say much the same thing. It was generally known that "Scythians" built "cyclopean" structures. Modern-day scholarship has corroborated many of the suppositions of 19th-century travelers. JP Mallory, considered one of the deans of Indo-European scholarship, identified at least three early proto-Indo-European fortresses in his magisterial treatise, In Search of the Indo-Europeans. He described them as all having "cyclopean" masonry. In particular, "Mikhaylovka I" had cyclopean walls that are still 3 meters tall. All of this before the first stone was laid in Mycenae. Kohl's The Making of Bronze Age Eurasia notes that the "earliest" Indo-European structures were "cyclopean": books.google.com/books?id=pA1-3KfkpuwC&pg=PA121&lpg=PA121&dq=kurgan+cyclopean&source=bl&ots=hTz_jZIL90&sig=OJ_NB7fTt119zSdrPywhVJyOICs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjtn4fyytrMAhWm7IMKHah8D0UQ6AEILTAF#v=onepage&q=kurgan%20cyclopean&f=falseRegarding the Early Bronze Age of the western steppe, Kuzmina writes about "massive stone walls" here: books.google.com/books?id=x5J9rn8p2-IC&pg=PA33&lpg=PA33&dq=liventsovka+massive&source=bl&ots=VOZgJ2bijC&sig=En-D9ogN_MbTPdDYQxaB5KLzBWs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjtkZTd2NrMAhUJwWMKHZqgBsUQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=liventsovka%20massive&f=false David W. Anthony, a world-wide authority on steppe cultures, had this to say: The Sintashta-Arkaim culture (
ca.
2000–1750BC) was the first Eurasian steppe culture to display several traits later central to the Aryans, including compact fortified settlements, chariotry (which was much more than transport, for it provided many of the essential metaphors that coloured Vedic mythology and prayer); lavish expenditures of resources on the graves of the elite; and elaborate mortuary animal sacrifices that regularly involved the ritual slaughter of horses and cattle.The assertions of Robert E. Howard that the Elder Hyperboreans (as stand-ins for Indo-Europeans) built cyclopean structures is borne out by scholars a century before him and a century after. www.boundless.com/art-history/textbooks/boundless-art-history-textbook/art-of-the-aegean-civilizations-5/mycenaean-art-61/mycenaean-architecture-324-5318/www.hittitemonuments.com/gavurkale/  |
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Post by deuce on May 27, 2016 18:49:41 GMT -5
Robert E. Howard had plenty to say about the Hyperboreans, you just have to look. Time to post his quotes in one place, starting with The Coming of Conan (Del Rey)... There was a giant Hyperborean renegade, taciturn, dangerous, with a broadsword strapped to his great gaunt frame – for men wore steel openly in the Maul. (p67) The mercenaries brought up the rear, a thousand horsemen, two thousand spearmen. (...) They were men of many races and many crimes. There were tall Hyperboreans, gaunt, bigboned, of slow speech and violent natures; (p162) I finally saw Deadpoool a few weeks back and it reminded me of something. Check out Colossus in this clip: Colossus, of course, is an ethnic Russian named Piotr Nikolaievitch Rasputin. Now, over the years, I've been told by Russians that Russians aren't "slow of speech". Quite honestly, that's immaterial. Above, you can see the 21st century American idea of a "Russian accent". Here is another "Russian" from the '80s, American-style: Finally, here we have the most famous "Russian" film star of the early 1930s: Yeah, yeah... I know "Karloff" was actually English. This wasn't general knowledge in America in 1932. Right there, we see a "Russian" actor who was "gaunt", "taciturn", "violent", "tall" and "slow of speech". Robert E. Howard doesn't seem to have known any actual Russian immigrants (though there was a significant community in Dallas). Despite that, his portrayal of Hyperboreans fits very well with American screen portrayals of Russians from 1931 to 2015. |
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Post by deuce on Aug 24, 2016 17:44:55 GMT -5
Robert E. Howard had plenty to say about the Hyperboreans, you just have to look. Time to post his quotes in one place, starting with The Coming of Conan (Del Rey)... There was a giant Hyperborean renegade, taciturn, dangerous, with a broadsword strapped to his great gaunt frame – for men wore steel openly in the Maul. (p67) The mercenaries brought up the rear, a thousand horsemen, two thousand spearmen. (...) They were men of many races and many crimes. There were tall Hyperboreans, gaunt, bigboned, of slow speech and violent natures; (p162) I finally saw Deadpoool a few weeks back and it reminded me of something. Check out Colossus in this clip: Colossus, of course, is an ethnic Russian named Piotr Nikolaievitch Rasputin. Now, over the years, I've been told by Russians that Russians aren't "slow of speech". Quite honestly, that's immaterial. Above, you can see the 21st century American idea of a "Russian accent". Here is another "Russian" from the '80s, American-style: Finally, here we have the most famous "Russian" film star of the early 1930s: Yeah, yeah... I know "Karloff" was actually English. This wasn't general knowledge in America in 1932. Right there, we see a "Russian" actor who was "gaunt", "taciturn", "violent", "tall" and "slow of speech". Robert E. Howard doesn't seem to have known any actual Russian immigrants (though there was a significant community in Dallas). Despite that, his portrayal of Hyperboreans fits very well with American screen portrayals of Russians from 1931 to 2015. Here is yet another example of the stereotypical American conception of a Russian (Hyperborean) accent: |
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Post by deuce on Sept 4, 2016 17:25:35 GMT -5
A Hyperborean boyar at a crossroads (Vasnetsov):  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2016 14:22:08 GMT -5
A Hyperborean boyar at a crossroads (Vasnetsov): Always liked this painting. I remember it was on the cover to 'Warriors of the Steppe' by Erik Hildiger. Boyar was probably originally a Turkic Bulgar title later adopted by the Slavic population.  |
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Post by deuce on Sept 8, 2016 21:44:29 GMT -5
Which Hyperborea are we talking in this thread?
Just as with all other similar threads on this sub-forum (unless otherwise noted), this thread deals with the entire history of the kingdom. Hyperborea is the oldest of the Hyborian kingdoms. It's arguably the oldest surviving kingdom west of the Vilayet and north of the Styx. Robert E. Howard's "The Hyborian Age" essay has been on the Net for over a decade. Here's a link: gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0603571.txt |
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Post by deuce on Sept 8, 2016 21:47:26 GMT -5
The final batch of quotes from Robert E. Howard pertinent to the Hyperboreans. Here are the entries from The Bloody Crown of Conan (Del Rey): “They are the Shemitish mercenaries of Constantius, the Kothic voivode of the Free Companies.” (p245) “Better death than the black shame that has come upon Khauran this day,” he groaned. “Did you see it, Ivga?” (p249) The other was dressed like them in a white, girdled khalat and a flowing head-dress which, banded about the temples with a triple circlet of braided camel-hair, fell to his shoulders. But he was not a Shemite. The dusk was not so thick, nor Conan’s hawk-like sight so clouded that he could not perceive the man’s facial characteristics. He was as tall as Conan, though not so heavy-limbed. His shoulders were broad and his supple figure was hard as steel and whalebone. A short black beard did not altogether mask the aggressive jut of his lean jaw, and grey eyes cold and piercing as a sword gleamed from the shadow of the kafieh. Quieting his restless steed with a quick sure hand, this man spoke: “By Mitra, I should know this man!” (p254) “There’s only one of your breed in these parts,” muttered Conan. “You are Olgerd Vladislav, the outlaw chief.” “Aye! And once a hetman of the kozaki of the Zaporoskan River, as you have guessed.” (p255) It is rumored that he has become the right-hand man of Olgerd Vladislav, the kozak adventurer who wandered down from the northern steppes and made himself chief of a band of Zuagirs. (p258) Baring his teeth in a snarl, Olgerd lifted his hand – then paused. There was something about the confidence in the Cimmerian’s dark face that shook him. His eyes began to burn like those of a wolf. “You scum of the western hills,” he muttered. “Have you dared seek to undermine my power?” “I didn’t have to,” answered Conan. “You lied when you said I had nothing to do with bringing in the new recruits. I had everything to do with it. They took your orders, but they fought for me. There is not room for two chiefs of the Zuagirs. They know I am the stronger man. I understand them better than you, and they, me; because I am a barbarian too.” (p266) An excerpt from a letter by Robert E. Howard from The Conquering Sword of Conan (Del Rey)
Where does it say in this text, that there was a Hyperborean in question? The dark beard doesn't fit the stereotype.
What "stereotype" are you talking about? |
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Post by deuce on Sept 8, 2016 22:01:22 GMT -5
A Hyperborean boyar at a crossroads (Vasnetsov): Always liked this painting. I remember it was on the cover to 'Warriors of the Steppe' by Erik Hildiger. Boyar was probably originally a Turkic Bulgar title later adopted by the Slavic population. That's a good book! Yeah, it's most likely "boyar" was derived from Turkic (though not 100% proven). The Hyperboreans fought Hyrkanians/Turanians for centuries (if not millennia) and probably picked up some terms relating to cavalry, so I figured the term fit well enough. I could've used "hussar", I suppose, but I'm saving that for the Brythunians. ;-) |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2016 2:41:46 GMT -5
Always liked this painting. I remember it was on the cover to 'Warriors of the Steppe' by Erik Hildiger. Boyar was probably originally a Turkic Bulgar title later adopted by the Slavic population. That's a good book! Yeah, it's most likely "boyar" was derived from Turkic (though not 100% proven). The Hyperboreans fought Hyrkanians/Turanians for centuries (if not millennia) and probably picked up some terms relating to cavalry, so I figured the term fit well enough. I could've used "hussar", I suppose, but I'm saving that for the Brythunians. ;-) Here's what's said on the stone in the painting. Viktor Vasnetsov (1848-1926); Knight at the Crossroads, 1878'This painting portrays a “vityaz” (a Russian Viking) sitting on a mighty horse at the crossroads. Since the Rurik royal dynasty was founded by Vikings, a lot of military features were borrowed from these northern tribes to accommodate Slav army. Around the soldier, there are black crows and skeletons, which represent death. There is a stone in the middle with a text written on it: “If you go straight, you won’t live; there is no way for someone to walk, ride, or fly through”. The invisible bottom part says: “if you go right, you will get married; if you go left, you will get rich”. The whole situation has been inspired by Russian folklore, especially the story of Ilya Muromets. He is savior and protector of Slav people from different Asian tribes. “Going back to the roots” is one of the characteristics of Vasnetsov art.'sites.duke.edu/russian217final/2015/05/01/viktor-vasnetsov-1848-1926-knight-at-the-crossroads-1878/I think it was common for the Turkic and Slavic populations to adopt titles from each other. From the age of the Huns, Avars, Bulgars, Various Ogur tribes, Khazars, Pechenegs, Cumans/Kipchaks all the way to the Mongols, Slavic and Altaic peoples have sometimes been allies or at war with each other. So, there is a symbiotic nature to the relationship, they have more in common, than they'd both care to admit. I'm Sure you have heard of the saying: 'Scratch a Russian and you will find a Tatar'. |
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Post by bront on Sept 12, 2016 0:05:18 GMT -5
I was introduced to Howard’s Hyperboreans when I first read REH’s Hyborian Age which described the ancestors of the Hyperboreans in a dynamic way.
‘Another factor had added to the impetus of Hyborian drift. A tribe of that race has discovered the use of stone in building, and the first Hyborian kingdom has come into being – the rude and barbaric kingdom of Hypeborea, which had its beginning in a crude fortress of boulders heaped to repel tribal attack. The people of this tribe soon abandoned their horsehide tents for stone houses, crudely but mightily built, and thus protected, they grew strong. There are a few more dramatic events in history than the rise of the rude, fierce kingdom of Hyperborea, whose people turned abruptly from their nomadic life to rear dwellings of naked stone, surrounded by cyclopean walls- a race scarcely emerged from the polished stone age , who had by a freak of chance, learned the first rude principles of architecture,’
From the same essay by REH.
‘The ancient kingdom of Hyperborea is one aloof than the others, yet there is alien blood in plenty in its veins, from the capture of foreign women – Hyrkanians, Aesir, and Zamorians.’
‘The Tower of the Elephant’.
‘There was a giant Hyperborean renegade, taciturn, dangerous, with a broadsword strapped to his great gaunt frame-for men wore steel openly in the Maul.’
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Post by bront on Sept 12, 2016 0:15:54 GMT -5
A few good references here on this thread to Howard’s Hyperboreans ( although I don’t understand Deuce posting the stocky depictions by the artist McBride from the Medieval Russian Armies collection Osprey publishing in the opening posts of this thread, that and his erroneous if not fanciful assertions that the Hyperboreans are based on the Russians).
Hyperboreans are not Russians, not Slavs, early Slavs had been mostly an unwarlike agricultural people that reared flocks and herds, REH never described the fortress dwelling Hyperboreans as such. To compare the Hyperboreans to the Russians is just speculation, unsupported by text in the core material.
As for King Tomar of Hyperborea. Tomar is an old Indo European name. REH could have picked up the name from various sources. For instance the 10th century Tomar who was an earl, a Jarl, of the Danes, came to Limerick, got up to all sorts of mischief starting with the burning of the monasteries of Iniscaltra, Muckinnis and Clonmacnois. Much more likely since REH was very well versed in the Irish annals.
So why the run down on so much unrelated material to do with the Russians.
Nor are they, the Hyperboreans, Finnish. The Finns descendant from hunter gatherers, originally from the Urals, that gradually made their way to Finland from the Baltics around two thousand years ago, somewhat displacing the earlier arrivals, sparse groups of Lapps. Most of the history of the Finns had to do with subjugation under the Swedes and Russians who also culturally advanced and influenced the developed of Finland. Nothing written by REH suggests Hyperboreans are Finnish. Note that the Finns speak a non Indo European language that belongs to another language family.
The confusion by some Posters to relate both the Russians and the Finns with the Hyperboreans has to do with the geographical location of Hyperborea which corresponds to north east Europe.
Bottom line, REH never said that Hyperboreans where Russians or Finns.
The Hyperboreans began as a rude barbaric kingdom, eventually became a civilised Hyborian power although more aloof than the other Hyborian nations.
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Post by bront on Sept 12, 2016 18:08:34 GMT -5
This thread was not supposed to be about REH’s Hyperboreans.
Some inconsistencies littered throughout the thread.
For instance
On page one, the art by McBride with three somewhat stocky Scythians. Again, what to do the Scythians have to do with Hyperboreans??? Absolutely nothing.
In REH’s Hyborian Age essay
‘Other clans of the Cimmerians adventured east of the drying inland sea, and a few centuries later, mixed with Hyrkanian blood, returned westward as Scythians.’
REH never said anything about Hyperboreans descending into Scythians.
The main point is that we should drop the nonsense that Howard's Hyperboreans where based on Russians or Finns, certainly not based on the writings of REH.
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Tex
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Post by Tex on Sept 14, 2016 9:26:42 GMT -5
Venaala said...
"I don't think anyone really wants to say that Hyperborea IS Russia!"
I don't think the Hyperboreans are Russian, but Two-Gun based them on Medieval Russians.
Tex
(and I know for a fact that REH scholar Morgan Holmes thinks so as well)
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Post by zarono on Sept 14, 2016 10:27:16 GMT -5
I think the Hyperborean-Russian equation is the best solution to the question of "What were the Hyperboreans like?", it fleshes out their culture very well and establishes them as being a formidable and well organized power in the Hyborian Age.
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