Hyperborea and the Hyperboreans (according to REH)

[deuce]

Sept 21, 2016 9:53:14 GMT -5 deuce said:

This is going to be the last post to be posted on this thread that mentions the Finns in relation to Hyperborea. I will go into that further below.

I started this thread awhile back and titled it "Hyperborea and the Hyperboreans (according to REH)". That "according to REH" is important to keep in mind.

This thread is intended to provide data from REH about the Hyperboreans. It is here to discuss what all of the data indicates in regard to Hyperborea's people, culture and relationship to other peoples of the Hyborian Age. It is also here, since such threads always tend that way, to discuss that information and try to determine if, perhaps, Robert E. Howard had a historical model in mind when he envisioned Hyperborea.

This thread is "according to Robert E. Howard". It is not "according just to the Lancer/Ace Conans" or "according to what I cherry-pick, and to hell with what REH thought otherwise". Robert E. Howard did not write his tales of the Hyborian Age in a vacuum. As has been noted by many, many people, Howard drew upon his extensive knowledge of, and interest in, history when creating the Hyborian Age. It should be noted that REH's interests and knowledge were not equal across the board. He preferred some regions and periods in history far more than others. Thus, what REH thought about various cultures and what he knew about various cultures and how he wrote about various cultures can come into play on this thread.

If what Robert E. Howard thought about a certain culture is "wrong" according to "accepted history" or someone else's "understanding of history", then Robert E. Howard's views supersede them on this thread. That simple. It is right in the title of this thread. 


Doing a straight reading of the facts, according to Robert E. Howard, the Finns are utterly disqualified from being a possible model for the Hyperboreans of the Hyborian Age. Here is what REH thought about the Finns:

These quotes are from two letters to Lovecraft:

"Speaking of Mongol stocks, I notice the Finns seem to be somewhat divided among themselves, even to the point of violence. But as you say, they and the Hungarians have adapted themselves to western civilization surprizingly well for Mongolians."
(1932)
"If we justify Italy's grabbing of Ethiopia, how can we condemn Japan's seizing of Manchuria, China, Australia and India? What objection could we offer against Germany's grabbing Austria, Finland, Poland, Scandinavia? Or Russia's grabbing all the weaker countries about her?" (Feb., 1936)

Here is a quote from "The Shadow of the Hun" (written in 1931), wherein Turlogh, the Gaelic hero, talks about being ship-wrecked in Finland (circa 1016 AD) after fighting Vikings:



"I awaked in the hut of a strange people. (...) Well, these folks were Finns -- kindly people who treated me well."


The first quote establishes, beyond doubt, that REH considered the Finns to be of "Mongolian stock". The second quote establishes that Howard viewed Finland as a country in danger from its more powerful neighbors. Not a hint of imperialism or "frontier traditions". The third establishes that, according to REH, the medieval Finns lived in huts and were "kindly people" who treated helpless strangers well.

Here is what REH said about Hyperborea:

Gunderland existed for several generations in its former state as a separate principality. (...) They were, next to the Hyperboreans, the tallest of the Hyborian races. (p348, TCoCoC) 

Here, REH definitively states that the Hyperboreans are a "Hyborian race", right alongside the pure-blooded Gundermen. In case someone hasn't realized it, Howard always portrayed the Hyborians as being of the Caucasoid/Europoid phenotype. Not as "Mongoloid". The Hyperboreans are part of a vast macro-ethnic group encompassing nations from Aquilonia to Koth, just as Western nations now speak related tongues, except for outliers like the Finns. 

Aquilonia, as the western-most of the Hyborian kingdoms, retained frontier traditions equalled only by the more ancient kingdom of Hyperborea and the Border Kingdom. (p348, TCoCoC) 

Hyperborea has "frontier traditions", which in this context can only be understood as pushing into non-Hyperborean territory. This is imperialism, essentially. Hyperborea was a powerful nation, a "shining kingdom" (according to REH). Hyperborea was capable of marching outside its borders, taking on Imperial Aquilonia at its height, and still walking away with its territory and sovereignty intact. According to REH, Hyperborea was a civilized, "shining" kingdom with with several cities.

Why or how, I am not certain, but he [Conan] spent some months among a tribe of the Æsir, fighting with the Vanir and the Hyperboreans, and developing a hate for the latter which lasted all his life and later affected his policies as king of Aquilonia. Captured by them, he escaped southward and came into Zamora in time to make his debut in print. (p344, TCSoC)

The Hyperboreans are not kind to strangers, apparently. Howard wrote that in a letter mailed in 1936, so these are his final thoughts on Hyperborea. REH never noted an especial hatred by Conan for the Stygians or Turanians. Just the Hyperboreans. The Hyperboreans do not appear to be a kindly people to strangers.

So, let's A/B the Finns and Hyperboreans, according to REH:

A. REH Finns: Of "Mongolian stock". They would be of "Hyrkanian stock" in the Hyborian Age.

B. REH Hyperboreans: A "Hyborian" people. They would, in broad Howardian terms, be of "European" or "Aryan stock".

A. REH Finns: Not imperialist, not pushing their frontiers beyond their borders. Not a powerful nation capable of extending its military might beyond itself.

B. REH Hyperboreans: Imperialist, with frontier traditions. Fought Imperial Aquilonia in the Border Kingdom. Walked away to fight another day. An international player and "shining kingdom", it kept diplomatic ties with far-off nations like Koth.

A. REH Finns: A kind people who treated helpless strangers well.

B. REH Hyperboreans: An "aloof" nation who treated Conan so badly, he held a special hatred for them the rest of his life.

Thus, on numerous fundamental grounds, the Finns (as REH saw them) could not be a model for REH's Hyborian Age Hyperboreans during the time of Conan. Therefore, in this thread, which is "According to REH", posting about "Finns = Hyperboreans" is off-topic. 

While weight of scholarly opinion doesn't necessarily decide a matter, Rusty Burke, Morgan Holmes, Jeffrey Shanks and Al Harron all agree that Howard couldn't have been using the Finns (as he saw them) as a model for his Hyperboreans. They are all winners of various Cimmerian or REH Foundation awards (google them).

Even our own estimable Bront, whom Buxom Sorceress called "a fan who knows the reh research very well," agrees that the "Finnoborean" hypothesis doesn't agree with what REH wrote. 

Venaala sees things differently, which is totally her right. An agreement has been reached. All future comments about Finland and Hyperborea will be directed to the "Venaala's Finnish Hyborian Speculations" thread here:

swordsofreh.proboards.com/thread/42/venaalas-finnish-hyborian-age-speculations

Despite the original title ("Armies of the Hyborian Age by Morgan Holmes"), Venaala powerfully shifted that thread to a "Finnoborean" stance on just the third post, making it a vibrant venue for thoughts and feelings about Finland and Hyperborea. In all honesty, Venaala created the first "Hyperborean" thread on the forum right there. Everyone wanting to join in the fun and excitement is encouraged to frequent that noteworthy thread. To get things jump-started, several of Venaala's most powerful and fact-filled posts have already been moved over. Discussions are still underway as to whether any more posts from this thread will be moved.

Let no one doubt that criticism of the "REH used medieval Russia as a general basis for Hyperborea" is fully encouraged on this thread. Just because the "Finnoborean" hypothesis has been disqualified on Howardian grounds doesn't mean the matter is settled. Bring on the misgivings about the "Russoborean" idea. If other cultures (besides the Finns) look to be a better model, then put them forward. Just remember they have to withstand analysis in light of what Robert E. Howard wrote and said.  

No further comments are to be posted on this thread for or against the "Finnoborean" hypothesis. That counts anything beyond the merest glancing reference. Posts that do go beyond that point will be cheerfully moved to the "Armies of the Hyborian Age" thread here:

swordsofreh.proboards.com/thread/42/venaalas-finnish-hyborian-age-speculations

Any replies to this post should be posted on the above thread. Just copy and paste (if you don't know how, ask Buxie). I'll be moderating that thread, like all other threads, so I'll reply. Any replies to this post posted on this thread will be moved to the "Venaala" thread.

swordsofreh.proboards.com/thread/42/venaalas-finnish-hyborian-age-speculations


It was agreed we would keep further Finnish discussions off this thread. We wouldn't want to deprive Venaala's thread of traffic. I will also repost this post to remind everyone, so just save everyone the hassle. Nobody is being repressed. Things are just being kept on topic and in the right threads. You don't drive an eighteen-wheeler in the bicycle lane.

Carry on. Let's talk REH and his Hyborian Age Hyperboreans.    

Apparently, some people didn't read the last notice. 

All posts replying to/commenting on the above notification will be moved to this thread:

swordsofreh.proboards.com/thread/42/venaalas-finnish-hyborian-age-speculations

That is where the [Suomi-land] discussions began (two pages of 'em last April/May) and that is where all of them now are. The change/split affects that thread just as much as this one and that thread needs the traffic. Click on over and check it out.

Let's talk Robert E. Howard and Hyperborea.

[deuce]

Sept 22, 2016 17:37:16 GMT -5 bront said:

What’s this, two pages wiped out including my last post. This is ridiculous...

Have you had a good cry now, Bront?  

None of your posts are "wiped out", as you put it. Did you go to drama school?  It was plainly posted where they went and a link given. Here's the link again:

swordsofreh.proboards.com/thread/42/venaalas-finnish-hyborian-age-speculations?page=3

They're still right here on the forum and right out there where Crom and everybody can read them. The notification post said exactly where any posts dealing with the "two threads" issue would be sent. I'll just point out that quite a few posts agreeing with the change were also moved. Fair's fair. Your post I'm replying to now is going to Venaala's thread. I've already replied to one of your posts there. Check it out. 

I replied to your above comment on this thread since you couldn't seem to read/understand the plain English of the reposted notification post. I'll repost it again for any others who can't quite get the message. Don't doubt that any other post like the one you just put up will also go there. It's a big thread. Plenty of room for discussion.

As it is, stay on-topic.

Are you joking, this whole thread is basically a billboard advertising Hyperborea as Russia, with you as the main promoter.

If this thread is "basically a billboard advertising Hyperborea as Russia", then why are there so many posts from you on this thread directly disputing such "advertising"? How are they still on this thread? If you're being "stifled", how are they still here? Riddle me that.

Once again, I see you're tossing out your straw man argument (look it up) that somebody, somewhere is saying "Hyperborea IS Russia". Nobody has said that on this thread. All the "Russoboreans" posit is that if REH was inspired by a culture when he created Hyperborea, that culture was most likely medieval/Tsarist Russia as he saw it. Not necessarily how you, I nor your 1930 Everyman Encyclopedia see it. 

[bront]

Hahahaaaa, OMG, couldn't help it could you, now I am on the Finnish thread without lifting a finger, you're a riot Deuce. Just proves my point though.

Russoborean is right, love the term, you coin it ? It's fitting.

"Russoboreans" posit is that if REH was inspired by a culture when he created Hyperborea, that culture was most likely medieval/Tsarist Russia as he saw it'

What's that, your 'intuition' or something ))))

Now that's a leap of faith. At least I am working around the material he did write. Better to say postulate on why REH chose the location of the Slavic sounding Zaporoska for the Slavic sounding Olgerd than to say add things that just aren't there. At least it corresponds to what we know about where early Slavs lived.

Conan never referred to Olgerd as a Hyperborean, considering he wasn't overly fond of that particular breed of Hyborian you would think it would have figured somewhere, but no.

The Hyperborea is the oldest Hyborian civilisation. It's very name clues you in to their nature, as does the origin of the Hyborians

'These people are called Hyborians, or Hybori; their god was Bori some great chief, whom legend made even more ancient as the king who led them into the north, in the days of
the great Cataclysm, which the tribes remember only in distorted folklore.'

'Fifteen hundred years in the north country have made them a tall, tawny-haired, grey-eyed race,vigorous and warlike, and already exhibiting a well-defined artistry and poetism of nature. They still live mostly by the hunt, but the southern tribes have been raising cattle for some centuries.

'Look at the world five hundred years later. Tribes of tawnyured Hyborians have moved southward and westward, conquering and destroying
many of the small unclassified clans.'

'The tale of the next thousand years is the tale of the rise of the Hyborians, whose warlike tribes dominate the western world'

The war like nature, references to Bori, In Nose myth Buri or Bori, was the progenitor of the Gods at the beginning of time.

[deuce]

Sept 23, 2016 5:28:28 GMT -5 bront said:

'Look at the world five hundred years later. Tribes of tawnyured Hyborians have moved southward and westward, conquering and destroying
many of the small unclassified clans.'

"Tawnyured Hyborians"? "Tenured Hyborians", perhaps?    

The war like nature, references to Bori, In Nose myth Buri or Bori, was the progenitor of the Gods at the beginning of time.

I'm not familiar with the myths of these "Noses" you're referring to. "Bori, Primal God of the Noses."   

As far as "Hyperboreans", there is the god, Boreas. He is the divine embodiment of the North Wind in Greek mythology. "Boreas" is the ultimate basis of the original Greek term "Hyperborea". Homer mentioned Boreas and we know REH read Homer. The Roman version of the god Boreas was Aquilo or Aquilon, which appears to be the source of "Aquilonia". Thus, REH named two Hyborian countries, ultimately, after mythological gods of the North Wind.

Other than "The Hyborian Age" essay, Robert E. Howard never mentioned the word "Bori" in any of his Conan yarns, notes for the Conan tales, non-Conan yarns, poetry or letters. REH just doesn't seem to have been as big a fan of this "God of the Noses" as you are. 



 

[bront]

Typos, Norse....tawny haired was the other one, but you knew that.

Fan enough of the Norse noses to create the Aesir and Vanir north of Cimmeria, but you knew that too...right

[bront]

The Hyborians descended from tribes of the far north, survivors of the earlier cataclysm that saw them relocate from the south, it is from these people that the original Hyperboreans branched off at a later stage. Of course later mixing with Hyrkanians and Brythunians and others.

[deuce]

Sept 23, 2016 17:09:24 GMT -5 bront said:

Typos, Norse....tawny haired was the other one, but you knew that.

There's an "Edit" button in the upper right. 

Fan enough of the Norse noses to create the Aesir and Vanir north of Cimmeria, but you knew that too...right

Yeah, too bad the Nordheimr aren't Hyborians. Too bad that Howard never wrote another thing about "Bori" anywhere else.

[deuce]

Sept 23, 2016 17:18:04 GMT -5 bront said:

The Hyborians descended from tribes of the far north, survivors of the earlier cataclysm that saw them relocate from the south, it is from these people that the original Hyperboreans branched off at a later stage. Of course later mixing with Hyrkanians and Brythunians and others.

This info was quoted verbatim from REH in post #6 on the first page of this thread. Any special reason you reiterated it?

[bront]

Sept 24, 2016 0:20:27 GMT -5 deuce said:

Sept 23, 2016 17:18:04 GMT -5 bront said:

The Hyborians descended from tribes of the far north, survivors of the earlier cataclysm that saw them relocate from the south, it is from these people that the original Hyperboreans branched off at a later stage. Of course later mixing with Hyrkanians and Brythunians and others.

This info was quoted verbatim from REH in post #6 on the first page of this thread. Any special reason you reiterated it?

Never said that the Hyborians are Norse. The main point is that the Hyborians are a type of generic 'westerner', important gap fillers between the Shemites and the northerners. For instance Gunderland is almost lowland Scotch, and there is Latin cast, sometimes Hellenic or Byzantine to the Hyborians of the south.

[bront]

Deuce you said

'REH just doesn't seem to have been as big a fan of this "God of the Noses" as you are. '

This is your problem identified right here, being a ‘fan’ of this or that culture and their respective stories and legends shouldn’t figure into it. Myself, I like the mythos from the Norse, Russians and Greeks in the same measure.

Ken Kelly once made an interesting observation about receiving criticism for his depictions of females in fantasy art, and how the ladies liked it when he came out with a new piece that had a warrior queen dispatching some male adversary. KK said that aspect of the work was secondary to him. That what was more important was the work of shadow and light in the piece and how the figures related to each other for maximum effect.

It is about the right context.

What I am saying is that what it seems I am going up against here is your all too human desire for the Hyperboreans to be something you yourself want, in this case it is the Russians. The fact that REH never equated the Hyperboreans with Russians, in print, personal essay, notes or in story doesn't matter to you.

You want them to be Russians full stop and that’s all that matters to you, but I ain't going to piss on that parade. The double standards part is the problem.

[bront]

The description of the cyclopean walls of the Hyperboreans reminds me of one of the best preserved settlements of stone age western Europe, namely the Skara Brae settlement in the Orkneys dated to around the third millennium BC.

Skara Brae was a tight knit village with paved alleys running between the houses, the houses were built of dry stone, dwellings consisting of a single room with rounded corners, niches and a central hearth. Spain and Greece also had some stone age settlements around this time.

skarabraeorkney.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/skarabraeorkney.jpg

www.saintsandstones.net/images9/skarabrae-2010pano.jpg

[bront]

What is really interesting about Skara Brae is its northern European location.

Let us also not forget those impressive megalithic monuments found in Great Britain, Ireland, France and a few other locations in western Europe.

If you want imagination far easier to imagine REH’s Hyperboreans associated with the mysterious builders of Carnac, Callanish, the Poulnabrone Dolmen and of course Stonehenge.

c1.staticflickr.com/7/6094/6245914810_63dea4d147_b.jpg

What about the largest man made prehistoric mound, Silbury Hill in England.

www.celticnz.org/images/Avebury/Silbury%20Hill.jpg

The once dominant Hyborians themselves built an impressive civilisation, finally harried by Cimmerians, Picts, Nordics and Hyrkanians, the Hyborians were conquered and blotted out.

Of course no one can really pin point the actual real life culture and people responsible for these achievements, might have been anyone from Mediterranean neolithic types, to some obscure northern European group, even Saharan groups settling north over the Mediterranean at a much earlier age, but if asked which fictional Hyborian age civilisation was responsible for these wonders I might choose the Hyperboreans and other Hyborian tribes.

[deuce]

Sept 24, 2016 17:27:21 GMT -5 bront said:

Deuce you said

'REH just doesn't seem to have been as big a fan of this "God of the Noses" as you are. '

This is your problem identified right here, being a ‘fan’ of this or that culture and their respective stories and legends shouldn’t figure into it. Myself, I like the mythos from the Norse, Russians and Greeks in the same measure.

No, this your problem identified right here. Either you are being disengenuous or you have a singular failing when it comes to reading comprehension. I point out that Robert E. Howard never mentioned "Bori" in any fashion, ever, outside of "The Hyborian Age" essay and your takeaway is that I'm "not a fan" of Bori or his "mythos". That is clearly not what I said, so this looks like another one of your straw man arguments used to cloud and distract from the actual issue at hand. You do it again and again. Still not working.

It doesn't seem to matter to you that REH typed out "Bori" maybe 4-5 times in his life. You are fixated on Bori, not REH, and are seemingly using Bori as a linchpin in your "Brontoborean thesis".

Let's address what I'm a "fan of", since you brought it up...

You said, "Myself, I like the mythos from the Norse, Russians and Greeks in the same measure." You also seem to be trying to imply that I am not a "fan of" Norse mythology and seemingly a big fan of the "Russian mythos" (BTW, for someone who is so highly educated in history, you should know that "mythos" isn't a plural of "mythos". Just sayin'.)

When it comes to Norse mythology and culture, I'm quite interested in it. Why else would I create two threads on the Vikings?

Viking Stuff:  swordsofreh.proboards.com/thread/115/viking-stuff-archaeology-culture-history

...and "Novels About Vikings": swordsofreh.proboards.com/thread/124/novels-fiction-vikings

Obviously, I'm a big ol' Viking-hater. "Hatas gonna hate", as they say in the hood.

As far as the "Russian mythos", I know very little about it. I read one novel using Slavic mythology as a background because I liked many other, non-Slavic novels by the same author. Does that make me a "big fan" of the "Russian mythos"? Being as how you brought this whole thing up, maybe I'll start a thread on it, like I did Viking mythology.

The "Russian" threads I have started (long after the Viking threads) were created because there were certain people claiming REH said/thought this or that about Russians, or that he had no interest in Russia/Russians at all. Here they are:

REH & Russia:  swordsofreh.proboards.com/thread/293/robert-howards-views-russians-russia

Russians in REH Fiction:  swordsofreh.proboards.com/thread/297/russians-robert-howards-fiction-spoilers

In neither thread do Russians come out looking that great. 

So let me get this straight... Despite me starting two threads generally complimentary to Vikings, I hate their "mythos". Despite me starting two threads generally negative to Russians, I am a "fan of" their "mythos". Does that about sum it up, Bront?

By Crom, I can't wait for the next confusing, bassackwards zinger you throw my way.

[Von K]

I'll go through points in individual posts as I can't figure out how to multi-quote on this forum.

Sept 24, 2016 17:20:47 GMT -5 bront said:

The main point is that the Hyborians are a type of generic 'westerner', important gap fillers between the Shemites and the northerners. For instance Gunderland is almost lowland Scotch, and there is Latin cast, sometimes Hellenic or Byzantine to the Hyborians of the south.

So why can't you accept at least the potential that the Hyperboeans of Conan's time could well have a west Slavic cast?

True, REH never said that they did, but he never directly stated that the men of Gunderland were lowland Scots either. He never directly stated that Koth had a Byzantine cast, or that Khoraja had a Crusader state cast, yet yourself and many others have made such, imho, valid comparisons, and with good reason.

[Von K]

Sept 24, 2016 17:27:21 GMT -5 bront said:

It is about the right context.

What I am saying is that what it seems I am going up against here is your all too human desire for the Hyperboreans to be something you yourself want, in this case it is the Russians.

You want them to be Russians full stop and that’s all that matters to you, but I ain't going to piss on that parade. The double standards part is the problem.

First of all, no one has ever claimed that the Hyperboreans are Russians, only that REH drew inspiration from medieval Russia for his conception of Hyperborea in Conan's time. The same creative principle, in fact, that he used for the other Hyborian states. For the other Hyborian states to have such inspiration you accept, as noted above, yet seem to have a logical blind spot where Hyperborea is concerned, imho.

Second, what I think you're up against is our all too human desire for the Hyperborea of Conan's time to be taken in context with the rest of his general Hyborian Age conception, and interpreted in the light of the wider context of everything else we know about him. All of which is pointing to the fact that in REH's mind early medieval Russia was the general inspiration for the Hyperborea of Conan's time.

Now REH never stated this. He never stated that Gunderland was based on the lowland Scots either.

That you can happily accept one, yet vociferously reject the other seems inconsistent to me.

Third, Deuce is not alone in thinking this. Even in this one thread you can see that Jeff Shanks, Morgan Holmes, Zarono, Tex, Fernando and myself all agree.